A Thread For My Questions To Christians

[FallingWaters]

How were sin offerings done in the old testament? Were people free to accept or reject those, just like they are with Christ's death on the cross (if so, can you please show me some old testament verses that say this)?

I had to ask some other people about this one because I wasn't sure. The general principle is that faith was required of people in the Old Testament just as it is expected of us today.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
(Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.)

Hebrew 11 is the Hall of Faith, describing the faith of those in the Old Testament who were pleasing to God.

In the Old Testament, just as now, obedience is the evidence of our faith, and obedience is better than sacrifice.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Psa 51:16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

I have a some other questions...

Why is Christ's resurrection what the Christian faith is all about? How does this resurrection save everyone?

How were sin offerings done in the old testament? Were people free to accept or reject those, just like they are with Christ's death on the cross (if so, can you please show me some old testament verses that say this)?

Perhaps a better term is : REDEEM


Maybe, consider the SINLESS life of Jesus the

Christ from there . . . as REDEEMER . . .

 

[Space]

To Christians: How would it make you feel if, all of a sudden, you knew for a fact that God did not love or even like you... or even in fact he hated you? I know you might say that that's not going to happen, but lets just say it did... how would you feel?

 

[FallingWaters]

To Christians: How would it make you feel if, all of a sudden, you knew for a fact that God did not love or even like you... or even in fact he hated you? I know you might say that that's not going to happen, but lets just say it did... how would you feel?

That would be pretty overwhelming and terrifying. But I happen to know that God's heart is always open to anyone who will repent of their sins.

Psalm 34:18
The LORD is near to those who have a broken heart,
and saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Proverbs 3:34
Surely He scorns the scornful,
But gives grace to the humble.

 

[PaulAckermann]

1. Do you think not believing in Christ is something that someone does intentionally or do you think it's possible that someone can't believe in Christ or do you think it's something else that I haven't mentioned? Whatever your answer to this is, please explain why your answer is your answer.

I think there can be different reason why people do not believe in Christ. There are sincere people who cannot believe because of intellectual problems or ignorance. These people I believe God will have mercy on. Then there are others who refuse to turn to Christ because of the demands He places on them. God will be more severe on these people at Judgement Day.

2. How many times was Lot rescued from Sodom? Doesn't it say that he was rescued in both Genesis 14 and Genesis 19?

He was rescued twice. I know you find it hard to believe that Lot would go back to Sodom after he was captive. But that would not be only time that has happened.

St Patrick was held as a slave in Ireland since he was a boy. While a slave, he deepened his relationship with God. Then he escaped. In his adulthood, he felt called to be a missionary in, of all places, Ireland! So he came back to the place where he was once a slave.

We do not know the whole story of why Lot came back. Maybe, like St Patrick, he came back in order to help them to repent of their sins, the same reason St Patrick came back. This would explain why his righteous soul was vexed when he there a second time. But this is all speculation. There is not enough details in the Genesis account to know exactly why he did this.

Let me explain it this way. Suppose someone accused your best friend of doing something evil. The evidence that this person gives to support his accusation is purely circumstantial. Unless you are a fair-weather friend, you would not abandon your friend with mere circumstantial evidence. You would give your friend every chance to vindicate himself. In the same way, I admit that this is a little troubling. But this problem of Lot being there twice is like the circumstantial evidence against your friend - mildly troubling, but not enough to cast aside your best friend. There is just too much going on on the other side to validate Christianity. For instance, there are all the OT prophesies that were strikingly fufilled in the person of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament predicted the actual time of the existence of the Messiah, the actual place of the Messiah's birth, the sufferings of the Messiah, and even the resurrection of the Messiah. All of these were amazingly fullfilled in Jesus Christ. This not only validates the Old Testament, but it proves that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Compared to this evidence, the problem that Lot moved back to where he was once captive seems trivial.

3. What do you think about false prophets and why do you think what you do about them?

In the Old Testament, they were to be stoned. But Paul makes it clear that we are no longer under the OT law. We are no longer under the law, but under grace. In the OT, it was eye for an eye. In the New Testament, it is turn the other cheek. In the OT, we stone the adulterous and the heretic. In the NT, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

4. What do you think about who God is on the outside and the inside (like what does he look like, and who he is on the inside)?

Before God came in the flesh, in the person of Jesus Christ, He had no body. He was purely spirit. After the birth of Jesus Christ, God took on a body, or to be more accurate, the second Person of the Trinity took on a body.

There is no inside or outside when it comes to God. God is pure simplicity.

5. What do you think heaven is like (just give you're closest guess, if you want)?

Heaven is seeing the beatific vision of God himself. God is the source of all love, of all peace, of all joy. So man cannot experience ultimate love, joy, and peace without this eternal union with God.

6. Do you have questions, that you don't believe are answered, by reading the Bible?

Most defintely! The Bible contains truth, but it does not contain exhaustive truth. This is why I am Catholic. God has revealed His Truth is three ways - the Bible, Tradition, and the Magisterium. Those who only use the Bible as God's revelation have a superficial understanding of truth.

7. How far do you think we are away from Judgement Day (just give your best guess, if you want)?

I have no idea. I doubt it is in my lifetime.

8. In the Bible, why does God's angels pour out His wrath, instead of God doing it himself? Is God not mad enough or have the heart to do it himself?

God did not need anybody. God did not create man because He needed man. He was not lonely. God does not need us to share the gospel to others. He could have revealed the gospel to everyone without the need of us to preach the gospel to them. But He chose to work through us instead of working directly.

It is the same with the angels. He does not need them to do His work. But out of His love, He allows them to be involved in His work. The angels are not only involved in dealing out God's punishment. Most of the time they are involved in dealing out God's mercy.

 

[Space]

He was rescued twice, but not from the same place, nor by the same people.

In Genesis 14 we have the story of when Lot was kidnapped during a war and Abram (later known as Abraham) went to get him back and restore him to his home in Sodom. He wasn’t in Sodom at the time he was rescued by Abram.

Genesis 14:8-12
“8And the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) went out and joined together in battle in the Valley of Siddim
9against Chedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of nations, Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five.
10Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled; some fell there, and the remainder fled to the mountains.
11Then they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their provisions, and went their way.
12They also took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.”

They mention Lot because we know him. We know that not only Lot was taken, but other people were taken from Sodom as well. In the following verse, Abram is here returning the people after having successfully routed the Four Kings:
Genesis 14:16
“16So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people.”

The second time Lot is rescued is when Sodom and Gomorrah are about to be destroyed by God.
Genesis 19:16
“16And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.”

I have some more questions on this issue. At the end of Genesis 13 and the beginning of Genesis 14, it seems like Abram was allied with Kedorlaomer...

So Abram moved his tents and went to live near the great trees of Mamre at Hebron, where he built an altar to the LORD.

At this time Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of Elam and Tidal king of Goiim went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). All these latter kings joined forces in the Valley of Siddim (the Salt Sea). For twelve years they had been subject to Kedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled.

In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert.
-Genesis 13:18-14:7 (New International Version)

Notice that it says that Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him. I would assume that the 'him' who is being mentioned here would be Abram, because he was the last person who it was talking about before this (in the last verse of Genesis 13) that that 'him' could be. But here it says that Abram had returned from defeating Kedorlaomer...

After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
-Genesis 14:17 (New International Version)

If Abram was allied with Kedorlaomer, then how could he come back from defeating Kedorlaomer? Did he switch sides?

The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?"

And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. Therefore the LORD's anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. In furious anger and in great wrath the LORD uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now."
-Deuteronomy 29:23-28 (New International Version)

In Genesis 14, Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim were all allied together in a war against Kedorlaomer and some of it's allies. Then, it says a little later that the LORD had uprooted them (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim) from their land and thrust them into another land, which seems quite similar to what Abram's trained men did to their enemies...

During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus.
-Genesis 14:15 (New International Version)

Is what's being discussed in Deuteronomy 29 that same event that Genesis 14 is talking about? Wouldn't it seem like Abram was fighting against Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 14? Don't a lot of people think that the event that is being talked about in the part of Dueteronomy 29 that I had posted, is the same event that Genesis 19 mentions. But in Genesis 19, it says that the LORD had rained fire and burning sulfur on the cities and doesn't say anything about Admah or Zeboiim or that he ran the poeple of those cities out of their land and into another one. In Deuteronomy 29, doesn't it seem like it talks about the same story, as the one in Genesis 14, but it puts the LORD in the place of the 318 men that Abram had sent out in and discussed in Genesis 14?

 

[BelindaP]

Notice that it says that Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him. I would assume that the 'him' who is being mentioned here would be Abram, because he was the last person who it was talking about before this (in the last verse of Genesis 13) that that 'him' could be. But here it says that Abram had returned from defeating Kedorlaomer...

If Abram was allied with Kedorlaomer, then how could he come back from defeating Kedorlaomer? Did he switch sides?

When it talks about Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the 'him' refers to Kedorlaomer, not Abram. Abram did not involve himself in the affairs of the city-states around him until Kedolaomer and his crew attacked and took Lot captive.

He sided with Sodom and Gomorrah only for the sake of Lot. Once he had defeated Kedolaomer, he refused any of the booty because he did not want to associate with them. This view is further upheld in his discussion with the LORD over the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah. He did not want Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed, because he feared for Lot's safety.

 

[FallingWaters]

I have some more questions on this issue. At the end of Genesis 13 and the beginning of Genesis 14, it seems like Abram was allied with Kedorlaomer...

Notice that it says that Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him. I would assume that the 'him' who is being mentioned here would be Abram, because he was the last person who it was talking about before this (in the last verse of Genesis 13) that that 'him' could be. But here it says that Abram had returned from defeating Kedorlaomer...

(I am using the NKJV so some names are different than yours.)

It can be awfully confusing...
Chapter 14 begins a new subject.
They are now discussing a time when there was a war, and they name the kings involved:
And it came to pass in the days of
Amraphel king of Shinar,
Arioch king of Ellasar,
Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and
Tidal king of nations
FOUR KINGS

They list the other side:
they made war with
Bera king of Sodom,
Birsha king of Gomorrah,
Shinab king of Admah,
Shemeber king of Zeboiim,
and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar)
FIVE KINGS

5In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him came and attacked...
This “him” refers to Chedorlaomer. (I did check with a trusted commentary to make sure.)
It’s just like if I say, Space and all his friends that were with him went down to the skatepark.

If Abram was allied with Kedorlaomer, then how could he come back from defeating Kedorlaomer? Did he switch sides?

Once we have the previous item settled, this one is taken care of, too.

In Genesis 14, Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim were all allied together in a war against Kedorlaomer and some of it's allies. Then, it says a little later that the LORD had uprooted them (Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim) from their land and thrust them into another land, which seems quite similar to what Abram's trained men did to their enemies...

I need you to quote the exact verse for me... I can’t find it. And tell me which translation you're using.

Is what's being discussed in Deuteronomy 29 that same event that Genesis 14 is talking about?

Deut 29 is describing what happened in Genesis 19 when God rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom & Gomorrah.
Deut 29:23 “‘The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.’”

Wouldn't it seem like Abram was fighting against Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 14?

It is tough to keep it all straight. The 4 kings went against the 5 kings. The 5 kings includes the king of Sodom where Lot lived. The 5 kings lost again (in addition to 13 years earlier), and the inhabitants of Sodom (and other places) were taken hostage, including Lot. Abram went after the 4 kings who had kidnapped Lot and the rest of the people and defeated them - makes you wonder about those 5 kings, doesn’t it? Abram could defeat them but the kings couldn’t.
“...the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled; some fell there, and the remainder fled to the mountains. 11Then they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah...” this tells you that the 5 kings lost the battle.

Don't a lot of people think that the event that is being talked about in the part of Deuteronomy 29 that I had posted, is the same event that Genesis 19 mentions. But in Genesis 19, it says that the LORD had rained fire and burning sulfur on the cities and doesn't say anything about Admah or Zeboiim or that he ran the people of those cities out of their land and into another one.

It’s not spelled out; it just refers to cities, which someone could argue just meant Sodom and Gomorrah, but it could just as easily mean all the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah being the main cities.
Gen 13:11 Then Lot chose for himself all the plain of Jordan
v 12 Lot dwelt in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent even as far as Sodom.
Gen 19:20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one...
v 22 Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

24”Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.”
29 “And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.”

Adam Clarke says this:
“the kings of the Pentapolis or five cities—Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboiim, Zoar, and Admah, which were situated in the fruitful plain of Siddim”

So apparently, there were 5 cities there and I think Zoar would have also been destroyed if Lot hadn’t asked to live there.

In Deuteronomy 29, doesn't it seem like it talks about the same story, as the one in Genesis 14, but it puts the LORD in the place of the 318 men that Abram had sent out in and discussed in Genesis 14?

I guess I can see how a person could think that, but I happen to see Genesis as historically accurate, so I don’t see it that way. They are two separate incidents describing some history involving Lot.

 

[Space]

BelindaP and FallingWaters: You are right... the "him" that it was talking about was Kedorlaomer.

I need you to quote the exact verse for me... I can’t find it. And tell me which translation you're using.

I'm using the New International Version. Here's the verses I'm talking about...

At this time Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of Elam and Tidal king of Goiim went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar).
-Genesis 14:1-2 (New International Version)

It’s not spelled out; it just refers to cities, which someone could argue just meant Sodom and Gomorrah, but it could just as easily mean all the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah being the main cities.

Here's the verses I posted about this, in my previous post...

The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?"

And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. Therefore the LORD's anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. In furious anger and in great wrath the LORD uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now."
-Deuteronomy 29:23-28 (New International Version)

When it says "this people" I'm assuming that it's talking about the people of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. And, it says a little while after this, that the LORD had uprooted them from their land. So here, I'm assuming, that their land means Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. And the land they were thrust into, is Hobah, mentioned in this verse...

During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus.
-Genesis 14:15 (New International Version)

So, to me, these stories seem similar if the LORD and the 318 trained men are the same.

 

[BelindaP]

I see your confusion now. In Deuteronomy, Moses is talking about the curses that will fall upon Israel if they break His covenant. He is saying that land upon which Israel stands will become like the land of Sodom, Gomorrah, et. al., if they completely abandon the covenant between them and God. He is not talking about a specific historical moment, as much as he is talking about the consequences of rebellion.

One of the other consequences of rebellion was that the people of Israel would be driven off of their land into other nations. That has happened several times in history. God has always brought them back when they repented of their sins and returned to him.

He has not, as of yet, destroyed the land like he did Sodom and Gomorrah. That is in the future, and the last days.

As far as I can tell in reading the Deuteronomy passage, Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned only as an example of what could happen to Israel. The part about being driven off the land does not refer to Sodom and Gomorrah. It is just another of the potential consequences listed out for Israel. I think you'll need to read the preceding and subsequent chapters of Deuteronomy to get the full picture it is trying to paint.

 

[FallingWaters]

When it says "this people" I'm assuming that it's talking about the people of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. And, it says a little while after this, that the LORD had uprooted them from their land. So here, I'm assuming, that their land means Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. And the land they were thrust into, is Hobah, mentioned in this verse...

I had a little difficulty discerning the context of this, too.

If you read the whole chapter, this is what we see:

Moses has called together all the people. v2
He says God is making a covenant with them today. v11
He warns people not to make secret vows in their hearts, or else God will punish that person. v19 and v21
God will curse them with the curses that have already been previously explained. (Deut. 28)
The next generation and foreigners will come and see the desolation God has cursed you with. v22
You will look just like Sodom and Gomorrah and the other two cities. v23
And when people ask why, they will be told it's because the Israelites abandoned God's covenant. v 24 and v25
So the LORD has uprooted them- the Israelites that God is today making a covenant with- from their land (just as He did with Sodom and Gomorrah and the other two cities).


These verses that are so confusing are a description of what could happen in the future if/when the Israelites break their covenant with God.

I have to go make meringue for a lemon pie. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving! God does love you and care about you.

 

[Space]

I think I have more questions I want to ask and things I want to have a clearer understanding of.

Thanks for everyone's help on my questions so far. I hope everyone has a happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Space]

God does love you and care about you.

This is what I have questions on next. I have a few verses that I'd like to post and I'd appreciate it if we could only concentrate on these verses, instead of bringing other verses up.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
-Romans 1:28-31 (New International Version)

Here's this same issue in another Bible version...

Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either—women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.
-Romans 1:26-27 (The Message)

Whoever it is Paul is talking about here, they are being called "God-haters," "loveless," and "heartless." And that they were emptied of love, although if they had love in the first place, wouldn't they have not done the things that Romans 1 is talking about, that caused God to give them over. Here's a couple of verses on who and why people love...

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them.
-Luke 6:32 (New International Version)

And here's the other verse that talks about why we love...

We love because he first loved us.
-1 John 4:19 (New International Version)

Who do sinners love? They love those who love them. Why do we love? We love because he first loved us.

So, whoever is being called God-haters, loveless, and heartless in Romans 1, my questions are:

1. Would those sinners love God if God loved them?

2. Would they love if God loved them first?

 

[Emmy]

Dear FallingWaters, we know that Jesus died for all, and God loves all. God knows that we all were sinners, and will be sinners, until we listen to God`s Holy Law, to love God with all our hearts, souls and minds, and also love each other, as we love ourselves. That is not easy, and can only be done with Jesus`s help and guidance, and if we ask the Lord, He will help. Slowly we will change from selfish and unloving, to selflessly loving and caring, for all around us. There are those, who will not love as God wants to, although the Bible, God`s Word tells us, and many Christians will also tell us that God has always loved us, and is waiting for us, to love God too. When Jesus died on the cross, He died out of Love for us, and He reconciled us to God. If Atheist do not love God, it is because they do not want to, and there are many resons. I say this humbly and kindly, FallingWaters, and send greetings. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Space, after reading your message again, I find that I made the mistake of adressing FallingWaters, when I should have replied to you. Sorry about this. The truth is that God always loved us first, and Jesus died on the cross to prove His Love to us. I cannot believe that any Atheist would not know this, because it is God`s Love for all men and women, which is so wonderful. Jesus died, while we were still sinners, Jesus gave His Life, that we might be live, that we might be reconciled to God, and have life abundantly on Earth, and eternally when we leave our human bodies, and return to God. We are given the chance to accept a loving God and a wonderful Saviour. I say this humbly and kindly, Space, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[WashedClean]

Who do sinners love? They love those who love them. Why do we love? We love because he first loved us.

So, whoever is being called God-haters, loveless, and heartless in Romans 1, my questions are:

1. Would those sinners love God if God loved them?

2. Would they love if God loved them first?

Hello Space,

Sorry I'm coming to the party a little late.

To answer your first question - Who do sinners love? - they love themselves first and foremost. This is at the root of all evil - the sin of pride. So when sinners love, they cannot love as God does. They love partially and incompletely. But because all humans are made in the image of God, they can love.

God showed us love FIRST by sending Jesus to die for us. He didn't have to do this, but he wanted to out of love.

When God brings someone to a saving knowledge of Christ, they can't help but love God. I don't really believe someone can love God until they experience his love first.

Does this help at all? Sorry if I'm rambling and not making sense!

 

[Space]

To answer your first question - Who do sinners love? - they love themselves first and foremost. This is at the root of all evil - the sin of pride. So when sinners love, they cannot love as God does. They love partially and incompletely. But because all humans are made in the image of God, they can love.

Does this help at all? Sorry if I'm rambling and not making sense!

Don't worry about it. And you are making sense.

Isn't someone more likely to be prideful if they're someone who's ignored and don't feel that they are important verses someone who's been given much attention and knows that they're important? I know there's a lot of people who crave attention, but isn't that something that you need? Like a baby. Isn't it true that if you don't give a baby enough attention, then he or she will eventually die?

 

[Dasdream]

Don't worry about it. And you are making sense.

Isn't someone more likely to be prideful if they're someone who's ignored and don't feel that they are important verses someone who's been given much attention and knows that they're important? I know there's a lot of people who crave attention, but isn't that something that you need? Like a baby. Isn't it true that if you don't give a baby enough attention, then he or she will eventually die?

as a baby yeah, because they are helpless and can't take care of themselves. As an adult we are able to do things on our own. I know alot and belive me when i say alot of people that like to be in the "spotlight" to get attention, but for what? Usually when people do that it means they may have a low self esteem or a very high one and feel that they should be getting all they attention.

 

[Space]

as a baby yeah, because they are helpless and can't take care of themselves. As an adult we are able to do things on our own. I know alot and belive me when i say alot of people that like to be in the "spotlight" to get attention, but for what? Usually when people do that it means they may have a low self esteem or a very high one and feel that they should be getting all they attention.

This was the point I was trying to make. That is, people being ignored and not feeling important. At least if people crave attention, when having a high self esteem, then maybe that means that they're already in the spotlight, and are able to love themselves, and others, because eveyone pays attention to them and so they think highly of themselves.

Also, something that WashedClean brought up that I had missed. To WashedClean (or anyone else): WashedClean, you said sinners love themselves. Which, I think is true, for some sinners. The verses I had posted in Romans call the people who those verses are talking about God-haters, loveless, and heartless. If this is true, how can those people even love themselves?

 

[BelindaP]

So, whoever is being called God-haters, loveless, and heartless in Romans 1, my questions are:

1. Would those sinners love God if God loved them?

2. Would they love if God loved them first?

It's hard to blanket all sinners with one description concerning love. In Luke 6:32, Jesus is pointing out that virtually everyone (including sinners) will love somebody who treats them with equal kindness. He is trying to point out to people that it is not a special thing to love those you are friends with. It is important to also love those with whom you don't get along.

In 1 John 4:19, John is pointing out the simple logic for why we should love God--because He first loved us. It is in line with Jesus' logic in Luke.

We are all sinners, and we all love in different ways. That is why Greek had five or six different words for love. We love our children differently from the way we love our spouses. We love our spouses differently from how we love our friends.

If by sinners you are referring to unbelievers, then they love in many of the same ways that we do. However, most of them do not experience fully the kind of love that Jesus had when he asked God to forgive those who were nailing him to the cross. I think that is the primary difference. Those without Jesus in their lives have a great deal more difficulty loving those who don't love them.

To address your questions:
1) Those sinners do not love God, even though He loves them. Either they don't believe He does or they don't want to accept it.

2) God did love them first. In Romans 5:8 Paul states, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." There is no greater love than that a man lay down his life for a friend.

Experiencing God's wonderful love for us is one of the ways that we learn to love others that we would not typically love.