A thought on the War

[The Simple Plan]

From the outset I am anti-war. This may not sit well with others and am sure we will hark back to WW2, etc, etc. but as a Christian who wants to follow Christ's example as much as he can I cannot support a war. Many other Christians in Korea, Russia, Phillippines, China, etc are languishing in jails because the refuse to bear arms as they see this in contradiction to what Jesus taught about war or indeed of the many martyrs who suffered since the inception of Christianity, holding the same principles.

I have avoided this for a little while, because on other forums I have been castigated as anti-American (even though Britain is just as much a part of the coalition), but I will say it anyhow.

Whether we see this war as an economic (Aren't they all?) or a fight against terrorism, one of my main concerns is the plight of Christianity in the region.

From a US perspective the most vocal pro-war lobby has been the fundamentalist right, wishing to "rid the world of these terrorists". In some ways this really worries me - I have my own issues on this  --- What has not been mentioned by the Christians who support this war however is that Iraq is one of the few countries in the Arabic peninsula which, because it is a secular nation, and not Islamic has a very open policy towards Christians, albeit that I am not denying that the regime is monstrous. There are, at the last count, 13 recognized Christian organzations which worship freely in Iraq. inclduing Presbyterian, Assyrian Christians (who still speak Aramaic), Chaldean Catholic Church, Syrian Orthodox, Seventh Day Adventists, Armenian Apostolic Church. and indeed feel a lot safer under the current regime than they do if the balance of power was to shift to Sunni Muslim or Northern Kurdish control. These Christians have worshipped (check AP, CNN, Reuters, Annova) still even though the bombing has continued.

Whether we see this as a liberating war or not, my real concern has been about those Iraqi Christians who we are liberating, and their plight when the regime changes!! Compare this to the many Christians who have lost their lives in other so called "friendly Arabic" states such as Kuwait, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Yemen because they wanted to worship Christ freely in this states. I pray that those who are as vocal in defending the rights of our countries (UK, USA,etc.) will also voice their opinion about the opression of our many Christian families who in many situations are living day to day in fear of their lives. And we don't even want to start with China!!!

For those of us like myself who have friends and family who in many situations are working underground and flat out in those Arabic countries to spread the word of God, you will understand why we are reluctant to support a war which we don't personally see as the will of God, no matter how Christian our leaders posture!!!

 

God bless
Dave

 

 

[two feathers]

I greatly respect what you have said, Dave.

 

[The Simple Plan]

Some more thoughts from a peacenik!!

Christian Response
--------------------------------------

So that I can explain the anti war position that was taken by myself before this war even started. The Bible requires that we never pay back evil with evil. In defense of a realm and on a personal level the context of this passage of scripture tells us if someone comes to you with an evil mindset not to be drawn into that same manner of thinking. Remember how Jesus reacted when Peter cut off the ear of the soldier at Gethsemane? This was a real concern that many of our British and US nationals would be swept up into a patriotic fervour of hatred and mailicious response as the text explains.

James 4 ask us what causes wars and fightings? He bases it right back to this whole issue of coveting and not being able to obtain.

It is interesting to note that although many have levelled criticism against all the despotic regimes around the world like Iraq have no answer for the following text: Romans 13:1 "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those (authorities) that exist have been instituted by God."

So are we to say that despotic governments don't even have a season under God? Reflect on the following. In due time the oppressive British government in India were removed by peaceful means. Apartheid in South Africa was removed by peaceful means. The dictatorships of Moi in Kenya, of Uganda and many of the eastern bloc nations in Europe came about without any outside intervention. It is a given that events like World War 1/2, Kosovo and belatedly Rwanda were subject to outside intervention (the latter two more as a peacekeeping multilateral coalition than a singular nation or small grouping with full backing of the UN.) and even if I disagree with war can understand their place and why people would believe it was of divine importance as to how these countries needed to be in conflict.

Finally there are those who would like to hark back to the wars of the Old Testament, as a means for justifying this war. I always advise that before anyone harks back to that era, please note that Israel were a chosen nation by God and were told when they went into battle, depending on your take on scripture, to kill everything and everyone and only come back with the spoils of war!!

 

[The Simple Plan]

The Terrorist Link
----------------------

The main thrust for this incursion into Iraq has been the linking of the regime to al-Qaeida and the Sep11 incident.  At best this has been a very week argument and if at best there is a link, does one think that by toppling Saddam that the "terrorist link" will then suddenly disappear. Hatred runs so much deeper.

Any one who has spent the time to read the history of the Middle East notes that the majority of the surrounding/bordering countries to Iraq hate the fact that it Iraq is a secular nation and not one that is run with the varying degrees of fundamentalist Islamic governance, prevalent in those countries. Added to this is the seething hatred that Iraq received support for the West when attacking Iran in the 80's, both then with conventional and chemical weaponry supplied by the West. Wasn't Donald Rumsfled responsible for that?

It is well reported that Osama Bin Laden holds Saddam with disdain, and vice versa, and only speaks out against the attack on the Muslims in Iraq. He couldn't care less for Saddam and his cronies, no matter how many al-Qaieda (can you count them on one hand) loyalists are living and training in Iraq? The only difference being that within our nations al-Qaieda devotees are well underground.

Many observers well before this war knew this, and this is why they remain very skeptical of such a link, no matter how much Colin Powell and associates draw one. Indeed Saddaam like many other Arabic leaders applauded (quite wrongly) the atrocities of Sep 11 but only on the united front that they have against America per se. So this is much wider than Iraq?

My scepticism about the relevance of weapons of mass destruction is that if you watch how the symbolism of the west (US Embassies, Bali bombing, Palestinian suicide bombers, World Trade Center) is attacked by Arabic / Muslim protagonists, it is by unexpectd means, such as using our own planes, bombs made from fertilisers, mingling in with the crowd with bombs attached. Conversely these are a lot more unsuspecting and easier to use than say bringing in a bag of anthtrax or shooting a missile from Iraq to America?

It is worthwhile to note that although this threat of terrorism and national security is something relatively new to the US, it is something for which many nations in the world have constantly lived in fear of. Algerian Separatists in France. Basque Separatists in Spain, the IRA in the UK. The latter being a real thorn in the side for the UK as prior to Sep 11 such a group as allowed to openly fundraise on US soil. So to assume, as some have, of what it means to live in fear, or having us suggested to go to Iraq if we don't favour a war, living in a city like London not knowing whether a bomb will go off on the undergound, near a major station is something to which we are well acquainted. We are all in this now.

 

 

[The Simple Plan]

Anti-War or Anti American?
---------------------------------

One of the most pedantic and myopic responses I have seen from some in the pro war lobby is that all anti-war demonstrators are from the devil themselves. In order to justify their support for the war anyone who does not favour the war is either seen as anti-American, in favour of Saddam or demonised by some other means as being support of "them"!

The many westerners who are against this war have concerns on many fronts. Primarily many of us have not forgotten those who lose their lives first time round, those who are still suffering the effects of Gulf War Syndrome, those innocent children who will lose their lives as a result of this war and the many Christians who have been toiling within the Middle East and Asia to spread the gospel. Once many understand this, then they would be able to take their head out of the sand and realise that contesting the war as a Christian has many angles. Some people seem to be more focused on pledging their allegiance to their flag than to God?!!

Regardless of the economic benefits or losses that can arise because of this war those concerns I listed above go to the heart of my main concern. In an area of the world where Christian penetration is at best just above 2% many of us ave not thought of the major setback this war will do to the work there. Instead our own issues of national security have been the priority regardless. Can you imagine how difficult it will become to go to someone talking about the prince of peace after this war? Just a thought.

Following this I think there are many Americans who are very paranoid and cannot distinguish between an objection to this war and attack on them personally. This is not helped in many instances when they are fed with media coverage which feeds misinformation and dismisses reports outside of its borders as irrelevant or anti-American, e.g. Al Jezeera. FOr the record the coalition is made up of forces from the US, UK, Australia, Spain and others. Our own prime minister has put his political neck on the block and isolated himself from the same European Union he has been bending over backwards most of his political term to side with.

There are also many objectors within the US as well as to this war. Does this make them less American? As painful as it may seem, some Americans are still smarting from the idea of a country that prides itself of one nation under God, and the liberator of the free, have only been able (if at all) to realise part of that American dream within the last thirty or so years. Ghettoised and marginalised Americans who don't have the same access to white picket fences, university placements and the other pickings that are "available to all" don't all share this same dream, so not only has this war created division among Christians but also along ethnic lines as well. This can't be good.

Outside of the US there is much disdain as to many of the facets that represent America. The predominance of Hollywood and commericialisation (will there be a McDonalds in Baghdad?) are not things that are accepted the world over. Some people find this hard to believe but not all people buy into this. There is somewhat an air of arrogance about we won the war, we liberated your country, we invented democracy which although may not be the intention of the US is percived as such. Liberating Iraq from Saddam does not liberate an underlying anti-Westen feeling that permeates the Middle East, who by and large see the West (US and UK) as supporters of the Zionist government in Israel, amongst other things.

All points considered. It is important that some in the pro-war lobby take time to stand back and understand that those who do not favour war do not share all these sentiments, and in fact are more concerned about our boys and the work of Christianity in those areas.

 

[The Simple Plan]

The Cost of War
---------------------

Some commentators are trying to understand how an administration who have promised to lower taxes are getting the revenue to fund such a war (US) and how a nation who is facing an economic meltdown of its own (UK) how extramoney is being found from their war chest. Some will say this a small price to pay for national security, but the problem is so much bigger than Iraq. One of the questions that was asked before the Afghanistan incursion and has been asked since then about Iraq is what plans are afoot for the rebuilding of these nations after war.

The current humanitarian crisis in Iraq under the regime has been increased even more (as would be expected in war) and according to reports some 13 million of the 26 million inhabitants of the country are in need of clean water and food. The reports suggest that if not before the end of Easter then we could have a crisis on our hand bigger than the ones currently faced in Ehtiopia and drought hit southern Africa. To date for those who have been asking no one has been forthcoming as to how this is being addressed. For a nation who felt abandoned first time round, both politically and economically much needs to be done to restore that confidence in their liberators?

It has not escaped many that the rebuilding of the infrastructure of Iraq has been largely to assigned to USAID(US Agency for International Aid), and this was mooted well before the war begun. This will be funded largely by Iraqi oil -- and to date eight deals have been agreed with the US State Department and USAID for the rebuilding of Iraq, even though the rebuilding process has been stated in the recent Camp David press conference as something under the remit of the United Nations. The estimated cost of such rebuilding is in excess of $110bn on top of the $30bn already committed to the rebuilding of Afghanistan. So where does this money come from? Which firms/companies will benefit from this rebuilding?
Have we really thought about this? Do we really care?

And what about the non-economic cost of the rebuiliding of the lives of our soldiers who are over there?
-----

Many reasoned anti-war people like myself have taken these points and a host of other things into consideration. We may not be able to stop a war but we still have a voice to protest, just as we did when Clinton invaded Somalia. Sometimes it is good for you to be able so sit back and see the whole picture as for what it is. Not having any of the coalition flags emblazoned on our screens/ or pictures of guns and planes, does not make us any less citizens of our respective countries as those who favour war.

God bless us all, bring peace swiftly to this conflict and help us to focus our attention on spreading that everlasting gospel to all regardless of their ethnic, racial or historic background.

 

[l33tace]

Eastern block?? Wow I’m glad we didn’t have anything to do with that… *scratches head*
…though there is much forgotten and much more that many are unaware of concerning why and how such a thing happened concerning the fall of the eastern block.

I do commend you on your stance towards peace for I dearly hope for peace as well. Unfortunately we live in a fallen world and there is opposition to our stance concerning peace. I absolutely believe that peace is obtainable in this fallen world but at a cost. That cost is however at the cost of freedom to worship and believe in whom we choose to. And if there is some remnant of this religious freedom it is often strictly regulated and watered down by the governing powers that have control over it.

There are excellent scripture passages to make a case of nonviolent methods but there are also excellent scripture passage to make a case of self defense as well and It seems to depend on the situation in most cases. You say to toss out the inspired word of God contained in the “old testament” for you say it was a time that does not apply to us now, yet you site the uprisings of the early church that was addressed in the book of Romans and say that this applies to us now… ?? And may I also point out that there was a provision for insurrection made in the previous chapter of Romans when he says “if it be possible”. Yeah the words did fit for their situation due to the situation with the uprisings in Jerusalem and Rome but that does not give other countries the right to plot to attack us here in this time and in my country or those that pray us for our defense as what started this war over a decade ago.  

I’d also like to point out that it is true that Jesus healed the severed ear of the guard yet I’m not certain that this was or was not the same guard that struck Jesus shortly after and was strongly rebuked buy our Lord for the strike, but what about turn the other cheek? And why did they have swords to take off his ear in the first place if Jesus was so against defense? Did Jesus tell them to carry weapons just to look cool and important?

I’m all for peace now, but at what cost?

Peace

 

[Gunny]

I Was Wrong!
By Ken Joseph, Jr.
Amman, Jordan



How do you admit you were wrong? What do you do when you realize those you were defending in fact did not want your defense and wanted something completely different from you and from the world?

This is my story. It will probably upset everybody - those with whom I have fought for peace all my life and those for whom the decision for war comes a bit too fast.

I am an Assyrian. I was born and raised in Japan where I am the second generation in ministry after my Father came to Japan in answer to General Douglas Macarthur's call for 10,000 young people to help rebuild Japan following the war.

As a minister and due to my personal convictions I have always been against war for any and all reasons. It was precisely this moral conviction that led me to do all I could to stop the current war in Iraq.

From participating in demonstrations against the war in Japan to strongly opposing it on my radio program, on television and in regular columns I did my best to stand against what I thought to be an unjust war against an innocent people - in fact my people.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age. How my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917 settling finally in Chicago.

Currently there are approximately six million Assyrians - approximately 1.2 million in Iraq and the rest scattered in the Assyrian Diaspora across the world.

Without a country and rights even in our native land it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored and the people of the once great Assyrian Empire will once again be home.

HOME AT LAST

It was with that feeling, together with supplies for our Church and family that I went to Iraq to do all I could to help make a difference.

The feeling as I crossed the border was exhilarating - `home at last, I hought, as I would for the first time visit the land of my forefathers.

The kindness of the border guards when they learned I was Assyrian, the taxi, the people on the street it was like being back `home` after a long absence.

Now I finally know myself! The laid back, relaxed atmosphere, the kindness to strangers, the food, the smells, the language all seemed to trigger a long lost memory somewhere in my deepest DNA.

The first order of business was to attend Church. It was here where my morals were raked over the coals and I was first forced to examine them in the harsh light of reality.

Following a beautiful `Peace` to welcome the Peace Activists in which even the children participated, we moved to the next room to have a simple meal.

`What in the world do you mean?` I asked.

`How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come.`

Sitting next to me was an older man who carefully began to sound me out. Apparently feeling the freedom to talk in the midst of the mingling crowd he suddenly turned to me and said `There is something you should know.` `What` I asked surprised at the sudden comment.

`We didn't want to be here tonight`. he continued. `When the Priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service we said we didn't want to come`. He said.

`What do you mean` I inquired, confused. `We didn't want to come because we don't want peace` he replied.

`What in the world do you mean?` I asked. `How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come` he continued.

What in the world are you talking about? I blurted back.

That was the beginning of a strange odyssey that deeply shattered my convictions and moral base but at the same time gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.

THE STRANGE ODYSSEY BEGINS

Beginning that night and continuing on in the private homes of relatives with whom I stayed little by little the scales began to come off my eyes.

I had not realized it but began to realize that all foreigners in Iraq are subject to 24 hour surveillance by government `minders` who arrange all interviews, visits and contact with ordinary Iraqis. Through some fluke either by my invitation as a religious person and or my family connection I was not subject to any government `minders` at any time throughout my stay in Iraq.

As far as I can tell I was the only person including the media, Human Shields and others in Iraq without a Government `minder` there to guard.

What emerged was something so awful that it is difficult even now to write about it. Discussing with the head of our tribe what I should do as I wanted to stay in Baghdad with our people during their time of trial I was told that I could most help the Assyrian cause by going out and telling the story to the outside world.

Simply put, those living in Iraq, the common, regular people are in a living nightmare. From the terror that would come across the faces of my family at a unknown visitor, telephone call, knock at the door I began to realize the horror they lived with every day.

Over and over I questioned them `Why could you want war? Why could any human being desire war?` They're answer was quiet and measured. `Look at our lives!`We are living like animals. No food, no car, no telephone, no job and most of all no hope.`

I would marvel as my family went around their daily routine as normal as could be. Baghdad was completely serene without even a hint of war. Father would get up, have his breakfast and go off to work. The children to school, the old people - ten in the household to their daily chores.

`You can not imagine what it is to live with war for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine or we would lose our minds`

Then I began to see around me those seemingly in every household who had lost their minds. It seemed in every household there was one or more people who in any other society would be in a Mental Hospital and the ever present picture of a family member killed in one of the many wars.

Having been born and raised in Japan where in spite of 50 years of democracy still retains vestiges of the 400 year old police state I quickly began to catch the subtle nuances of a full blown, modern police state.

I wept with family members as I shared their pain and with great difficulty and deep soul searching began little by little to understand their desire for war to finally rid them of the nightmare they were living in.

The terrible price paid in simple, down to earth ways - the family member with a son who just screams all the time, the family member who lost his wife who left unable to cope anymore, the family member going to a daily job with nothing to do, the family member with a son lost to the war, a husband lost to alcoholism the daily, difficult to perceive slow death of people for whom all hope is lost.

The pictures of Sadaam Hussein whom people hailed in the beginning with great hope everywhere. Sadaam Hussein with his hand outstretched. Sadaam Hussein firing his rifle. Sadaam Hussein in his Arab Headdress. Sadaam Hussein in his classic 30 year old picture - one or more of these four pictures seemed to be everywhere on walls, in the middle of the road, in homes, as statues - he was everywhere!

All seeing, all knowing, all encompassing.

`Life is hell. We have no hope. But everything will be ok once the war is over.` The bizarre desire for a war that would rid them of the hopelessness was at best hard to understand.

`Look at it this way. No matter how bad it is we will not all die. We have hoped for some other way but nothing has worked. 12 years ago it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war and we want it now`


Coming back to family members and telling them of progress in the talks at the United Nations on working some sort of compromise with Iraq I was welcomed not with joy but anger. `No, there is no other way! We want the war! It is the only way he will get out of our lives`

Once again going back to my Japanese roots I began to understand. The stories I had heard from older Japanese of how in a strange way they had welcomed the sight of the bombers in the skies over Japan.
I had been demonstrating against the war thinking I had been doing it for the very people I was here with now and yet I had not ever bothered to ask them what they wanted.


Of course nobody wanted to be bombed but the first sight of the American B29 Bombers signaled to them that the war was coming to an end. An end was in sight. There would be terrible destruction. They might very well die but finally in a tragic way there was finally hope.

Then I began to feel so terrible. Here I had been demonstrating against the war thinking I had been doing it for the very people I was here now with and yet I had not ever bothered to ask them what they wanted. What they wanted me to do.

It was clear now what I should do. I began to talk to the so called `human shields`. Have you asked the people here what they want? Have you talked to regular people, away from your `minder` and asked them what they want?

I was shocked at the response. `We don't need to do that. We know what they want.` was the usual reply before a minder stepped up to check who I was.

With tears streaming down my face in my bed in a tiny house in Baghdad crowded in with 10 other of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted after another day of not living but existing without hope, exhausted in daily struggle simply to not die I had to say to myself `I was wrong`.

How dare I claim to speak for those for whom I had never asked what they wanted!

Cont'd

 

[Gunny]

I Was Wrong!
By Ken Joseph, Jr.
Amman, Jordan

Cont'd

ALL I COULD DO

Then I began a strange journey to do all I could while I could still remain to as asked by our tribe let the world know of the true situation in Iraq.

Carefully and with great risk, not just for me but most of all for those who told their story and opened up their homes for the camera I did my best to tape their plight as honestly and simply as I could. Whether I could get that precious tape out of the country was a different story.

What I was not prepared for was the sheer terror they felt at speaking out.
Wanting to make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of a long oppressed minority - the Assyrians - I spoke to dozens of people. What I was not prepared for was the sheer terror they felt at speaking out.

Over and over again I would be told `We would be killed for speaking like this` and finding out that they would only speak in a private home or where they were absolutely sure through the introduction of another Iraqi that I was not being attended by a minder.


From a former member of the Army to a person working with the police to taxi drivers to store owners to mothers to government officials without exception when allowed to speak freely the message was the same - `Please bring on the war. We are ready. We have suffered long enough. We may lose our lives but some of us will survive and for our children's sake please, please end our misery.

On the final day for the first time I saw the signs of war. For the first time sandbags began appearing at various government buildings but the solders putting them up and then later standing within the small circle they created gave a clear message they could not dare speak.

They hated it. They despised it. It was their job and they made clear in the way they worked to the common people watching that they were on their side and would not fight.

Near the end of my time a family member brought the word that guns had just been provided to the members of the Baath Party and for the first time we saw the small but growing signs of war.

But what of their feelings towards the United States and Britain? Those feelings are clearly mixed. They have no love for the British or the Americans but they trust them.

`We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people. What we are afraid of is Saddam Hussein and what he and the Baath Party will do when the war begins. But even then we want the war. It is the only way to escape our hell. Please tell them to hurry. We have been through war so many times,but this time it will give us hope`.

AT THE BORDER ... A FINAL CALL FOR HELP

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place - the border. Sadly, and sent off by the crying members of my family I left. Things were changing by the hour - the normally $100 ride from Baghdad to Amman was first $300 then $500 and by nightfall $1,000.

As we came to the border we began the routine paperwork and then the search of our vehicle. Everything was going well until suddenly the border guard asked if I had any money. We had been carefully instructed to make sure we only carried $300 when we returned so I began to open up the pouch that carried my passport and money stuffed in my shorts.

Suddenly the guard began to pat me down. `Oh, no`! I thought. It`s all over`. We had been told of what happened if you got caught with videotape, a cellular telephone or any kind of electronic equipment that had not been declared.

A trip back to Baghdad, a likely appearance before a judge, in some cases 24-48 hour holding and more.

He immediately found the first videotape stuffed in my pocket and took it out. I could see the expression of terror on the driver as he stifled a scream.

The guard shook his head as he reached into my pocket and took out another tape and then from pocket after pocket began to take out tape after tape, cellular telephone, computer camera - all the wrong things.

We all stood there in sheer terror - for a brief moment experiencing the feeling that beginning with my precious family members every Iraqi feels not for a moment but day and night, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. That terrible feeling that your life is not yours that its fate rests in someone else's hands that simply by the whim of the moment they can determine.


For one born free a terrifying feeling if but for an instant.

As the guard slowly laid out the precious video tape on the desk we all waited in silent terror for the word to be taken back to Baghdad and the beginning of the nightmare.
He didn't have to say a word. I had learned the language of the imprisoned Iraqi.


Suddenly he laid the last videotape down and looked up. His face is frozen in my memory but it was to me the look of sadness, anger and then a final look of quiet satisfaction as he clinically shook his head and quietly without a word handed all the precious videotape - the cry of those without a voice - to me.

He didn't have to say a word. I had learned the language of the imprisoned Iraqi. Forbidden to speak by sheer terror they used the one language they had left - human kindness.

As his hands slowly moved to give the tape over he said in his own way what my Uncle had said, what the taxi driver had said, what the broken old man had said, what the man in the restaurant had said, what the Army man had said, what the man working for the police had said, what the old woman had said, what the young girl had said - he said it for them in the one last message a I crossed the border from tyranny to freedom . . .

 

[Gunny]

The Cause of Freedom
By: Jim Thelen




I have served in the military, and though I have not experienced war, I share the disdain for war held by many people in the U.S. and around the world. Like the protestors of this war, I am saddened by the loss of even one human life, Iraqi, British, American or other. On the other hand, I believe it is logically unavoidable, to view those who are aggressively protesting this war, and verbally attacking the U.S., our Commander and Chief, and the coalition forces trying to liberate Iraq, as doing anything more or less than undermining the cause for freedom. These protestors are doing nothing more or less, than insulting the memory of those who have given, and will give, their lives for the cause of freedom. They are also degrading, in the minds of some, the mission of those who are currently risking their lives for the cause of freedom. This war is for the cause of freedom in Iraq, and it is for the cause of preserving freedom in the U.S. and around the world.

Would those who are protesting this war prefer the enslavement of human beings over war? Would those who are protesting this war prefer to allow human beings to be incarcerated, starved, tortured and gassed? For what purposes were men fighting at Normandy and at other locations in France, Germany and other parts of the world, during WWII? Would those who are protesting this war in Iraq prefer dictators who torture, slaughter and imprison those who disagree? Is that liberty? Is that freedom? Is that peace?

At best, those leading the protests of the war in Iraq can only be considered obstructionists. Their followers, at best, can only be considered uninformed. The obstructionists embrace their rights and freedoms like greedy hoarders, and are appalled at the suggestion of their selfishness. The uninformed cling like frightened kittens to their rights and freedoms, while ignoring their duties and obligations as a free people. Those who are protesting the war speak and display hypocrisy out of ignorance or fear, and they deny the call to support the very thing to which they cling. They give only token consideration for the costs that have been paid by others, and they give no consideration for present and future costs that should rightfully be shared by all. Are we so selfish to think that the freedoms we sometimes take for granted were only intended for a few? Does freedom fall from the sky and land indiscriminately upon us? Is freedom not earned? And is it not earned more readily through unity?

Abraham Lincoln called it “the eternal struggle between…right and wrong -- throughout the world.” Over and over he would remind people, “Never forget that we have before us this whole matter of right or wrong.” The brutal torture, murder and oppression that Saddam Hussein’s regime has imposed on many innocent people, inside and outside of Iraq, has been thoroughly published and portrayed. Further details are unnecessary. If war were for this reason alone, it would be justified. However, some of our own leaders, and some of this nation’s most fortunate and most renowned, and some in the news media, and some in nations with ulterior motives have inflamed doubts in the minds of the ill-informed and weak-hearted, and in the minds of those that blindly follow “popular culture”.

Hindsight is truly a luxury. I wonder how many of today’s protestors would have viewed the “obvious” evils of slavery had they lived in the southern United States about one hundred and fifty years ago. A war was fought and many people died. I wonder how many of today’s protestors would have viewed the “obvious” evils of concentration camps and gas chambers had they been German citizens under the rule of Hitler less than sixty years ago. A war was fought and many people died. I wonder why more people do not see the obvious necessity of war with a regime that tortures, murders, rapes and uses chemical and biological weapons on innocent people. I wonder why more people do not see the obvious necessity of war with a regime that has initiated unprovoked attacks on neighboring nations, and in losing a war that itself had initiated, has ignored, deceived and defied the terms of surrender for more than a decade. This, while continuing oppression, imprisonment, torture and murder of its own people. This, by the way, is today. And, unfortunately, as a last resort, a war is being fought and people have died, and will die, to save lives and liberate others. Just what is it that these protestors, today, are doing for the cause of freedom in the world?

I am reminded of a commonly quoted phrase, “But for the grace of God, there go I”, which leads me to comment about a topic that many will see as unrelated. It is not. It is all about freedom --- freedom, not just for a few, but for all.

There is plenty of historical precedent to indicate that if ever an armed war ensues to liberate unborn children from the inhumane, unjust, and murderous act of abortion, especially partial birth abortion, there will be many protestors to such a war. Furthermore, if there is ever such an armed war, and the cause of freedom prevails, and there is enough adult bloodshed to put the issue to rest, it is clear that in generations to follow, it will seem obvious in hindsight, to many of those that are quick to jump on the bandwagon of widely-broadcasted “popular opinion”, that abortion had always been evil and wrong, despite the fact that those on the bandwagon before them were unable to see such a fact. Unfortunately, the lessons of history are not implanted in our minds from conception, and such evils in the U.S. and around the world continue.

So it is understandable that there are some in the world who view us in the U.S. as arrogant and self-righteous. Our record as a free and peaceful nation is not always consistent, and it certainly is far from perfect. But what nation can claim greater contributions to freedom? And what nation can claim that inaction, neutrality or appeasement has accomplished more for the promotion of peace? Mahatma Gandhi once stated, “It is a first class human tragedy that people of the Earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice”. It is true that our words and actions are not always just. In the same way that many well-meaning Christians find it challenging to speak and act Christian, many well-meaning people in the U.S. often find it challenging to speak and act as grateful and humble citizens of a nation that stands for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Herein, also lies a paradox that many attempt to use as justification for inaction. If we are to be a people of peace, they might ask, then how can we be for war? The answer is clear. Without freedom, liberty and justice there can be no peace? Is it Saddam Hussein who seeks peace and justice? Or, is it the coalition forces who seek to establish peace and justice?

The war in Iraq is not about the United States, and it is not about the people of the United States. If this were the case, I too, would see it as unjust. It is about that for which the United States is intended to stand --- freedom. When the people of Iraq are liberated, only then will peace in Iraq be possible. And a war for the cause of freedom is a war that is just.

 

[The Simple Plan]

GunnySgt I read your postscript and then also your cut and pastes. I would rather hear you voice your opinion. Following your last statement by Jim Thelen however I would also like you to have a look at the following statements. 

CS Lewis
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

Mohatma Ghandi
Peace will not come out of a clash of arms but out of justice lived and done by unarmed nations in the face of odds.

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is
mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man

However much I may sympathize with and admire worthy motives, I am an uncompromising opponent of violent methods even to serve the noblest of causes

Democracy and violence can ill go together. Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side. 

Cesar Chavez
The non-violent technique does not depend for its success on the goodwill of the oppressor, but rather on the unfailing assistance of God 


Leo Tolstoy
Violence produces only something resembling justice, but it distances people from the possibility of living justly, without violence.

...and there are other quotes in my library from Martin Luther King, Henry Nouwen, Steve Biko, Francis of Assissi, Joan Baez, Nelson Mandela and many other great Christian and secular writers who all subscribe to the concept of non violence and loving their enemies.

I guess we will agree to disagree on this issue, but God continue to watch over us and our witness.

Stay blessed
Dave

 

[Gunny]

No Victory, No Peace
By John P Coussens


Anti-war protestors never cease to amaze me. They act as though God is on their side, yet they do not believe in God. The act as though they are more enlightened than the vast, unwashed masses, yet their signs are filled with such inanities as “Bush is an Idiot” and other, similar pearls of wisdom. They act as though they are morally superior as they block streets, violate the rights of other citizens and turn the rest of America ever more solidly against them.

Their actions have not stopped the war from happening. Their actions have not deterred the several dozen nations from publicly joining the Coalition of the Willing. It is easy to dismiss them as simple idiots, but that would be a mistake…

In the days before the war, Anti-war protesters rallied and chanted and sang. They paraded in cities across the country, demonstrating their ignorance for one simple fact: Without toppling Saddam, there would never be peace. He would continue to fund terrorism and suicide bombers, and his growing arsenal would soon find its way into the western world. Offering peace to Iraq would eventually result in far more tragedy than war with Iraq could ever cost. Convincing the marchers of this fact has proven impossible, but the marchers come in two basic flavors: organizers and willing idiots. While it might be possible to convince a few willing idiots of their fallacy, the organizers will never change as their real agenda has nothing to do with war.

These rallies are sponsored by such wonderfully patriotic organizations as the Socialist Party USA, Queers for Peace and Justice, Green Party and Left Turn (a socialist/anti-capitalist group with Palestinian ties). While some of the many willing idiots genuinely feel that this war is wrong, the folks who organized their rallies make up a core of hate-filled Anti-Americans, anti-capitalists and anarchists. These groups are the same ones who marched in Seattle against the WTO, and their real goal is not the end of this war, but rather the end of America was we know it today… These anti-war leaders want to destroy America.

Aligned with these anti-Americans are the governments of several socialist countries who also hate America. The French, for instance, having been bailed out of two world conflicts by America, show no historical gratitude or good will but rather only selfish interest in keeping their illicit arms sales thriving. In promoting this anti-war sentiment, the French not only failed to stop the war, their actions could well be directly responsible for the war happening at all. The French, German and Russian governments, in breaking ranks with the United States in the UN, destroyed any chance of actually achieving the goals of UN Resolution 1441. Only by presenting a unified stance in some pretty serious, high-stakes saber-rattling could the world have convinced Hussein to seek exile or actively disarm. By dividing the UN, peaceful means of resolving this conflict were lain waste. The selfish and cowardly French blinked first, and leveraging strong anti-American sentiment within their own country and within Germany and Russia, those b*stards guaranteed this war would come.

And now that war has started, we all know the truth. Without victory there can be no peace. Once again America has stepped up to protect the rest of the free world, sacrificing its own rather than leaving the rest of the world to implode. To France and Germany, I suggest you keep your wines, your chocolates and your BMW’s; don’t bother sending them here. In the mean time we’ll make the world safe for you…again…

 

[Gunny]

Saddam' death squads executing defectors

 

[chickenman]

hooray for blind patriotism!

 

[panterapat]

gunnysgt,

I rarely read posts that long but yours commanded my full attention. Thank-you for sharing. One cannot argue with personal experience.

Your story echos what I heard on the radio from an Iraqi woman. She said, "Peace protesters shut up. You have no idea what it is like to live under Saddam. God bless America and God bless George Bush for having the courage to stand up to Saddam."

And God bless you GunnySgt.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[Gerry]

I am sorry Dave that you have seperated Jesus from His Father, since Jesus said, "I and My Father are One"! If you beleieve that Christ and His Father are One, you better go read some more, about how God feels about war!

 

[Blessed-one]

*mod hat on*

no matter how everyone feels about this war, please keep your tone civil and refrain from throwing sarcastic remarks at your fellow posters. Thanks.

*mod hat off*

 

[Gunny]

Today at 03:08 AM panterapat said this in Post #15


And God bless you GunnySgt.

In Christ, Patrick

God bless you, Patrick!

By His Grace,

GySgt James

 

[Gunny]

Yesterday at 04:22 PM The Simple Plan said this in Post #11

GunnySgt I read your postscript and then also your cut and pastes. I would rather hear you voice your opinion.

I serve as a moderator at CF. This is a honor and privlege. I post my opinions via articles, links, and quotes so as to not be drawn into divisive posting banter which would diminish my primary duty as a CF Moderator.

 

[Gunny]

A Time for War - A Time for Peace