A thought on God...

[ArchaicTruth]

I just had an odd thought, and am looking for input. Also, if this is in the wrong forum , please move it, as there are a lot and I'm still not entirely awake right now.

Christianity says that God is infinite and was always there, yet there are laws that say something cannot be created from nothing. Let us suppose God is like a circle. A circle is infinite, you go forward and it will never end, likewise the same will happen if you go backwards. A circle is infinite, yet someone had to put that circle there. To move forward, we will give God a neutral definition.

"*We define god as simply someone... unchanging, and with a WILL to act. God exists in but a moment of eternity where there is no succession of events, thoughts, or time. God does everything he will ever do at every point in time at one time."
-http://www.thegodargument.com/?gclid=CMmdve6A240CFQlQWAod-we5mQ

We can suppose that God exists outside of time, where there are no succession of events, therefore if infinite was "placed" in some place that has no succession of events, then he has been there eternally.

Please don't get your boxers in a twist, this is all merely speculation and something to discuss, not get worked up over. Stuff like this always gets fuzzy when I touch on the absence of time because we have to use terms that describe time to describe the absence of time because we don't have anything else, and then we get loops and contradictions and its all very messy...fun stuff though.
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[redmartian89]

A circle is infinite, yet someone had to put that circle there.

Who ever said that?

I don't understand what you're purposing.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

I circle is infinite, because if you walk in a circle you will never hit a dead end. Say a person draws a circle, whala, a person just created an infinite value.

 

[redmartian89]

No, who ever said the circle needed to be placed?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, I don't know about you, but a lot of atheists do

Or, taking into account the possible alternate meaning to that

Well, we didn't just zap into existence, something had to put us here, and if the Big Bang put us here, then the components and circumstances for the Big Bang didn't just zap into existence, those had to be put there too.

 

[redmartian89]

Quite true, things don't zap here.

But how does this justify plugging God in to that knowledge gap.

Besides, the law of conservation of mass-energy say that mass-energy cannot be destroyed or created.

 

[AuraTwilight]

So what? God, by definition, doesn't have to follow any sort of physical or causal laws. If he wants to create he can do so regardless of what the Laws of Conservation say.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, everyone at that little point in time runs headlong into a huge-ass wall it seems

So where did the mass-energy come from , are you telling me that the mass-energy has always existed?

 

[Isambard]

Where did God come from?

This creates an infinite as well...

 

[StTherese]

Where did God come from?

This creates an infinite as well...

Exactly...He always was, is now, and always will be. God created us to exist within time...He is not bound to the natral laws in which He created.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, unless we excuse God from the laws of our existence, then everyone's pretty much stuck at that point

Still, fun to speculate

 

[AuraTwilight]

God COULD have been created by a time paradox. Who knows?

 

[Isambard]

Exactly...He always was, is now, and always will be. God created us to exist within time...He is not bound to the natral laws in which He created.

Why? Whats the point? Why does God exist? etc.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Thats a good question, perhaps God created us to give himself purpose

 

[StTherese]

Why? Whats the point? Why does God exist? etc.

We live in the created, material world, where everything has a beginning and an end. Things have cause and effect. We can answer the question as to why things happen with the use of reason, observation, etc...
God has no beginning and therefore His existence can not be reasoned using the logic that applies to creation. You can not ask the question why to something that has always been, He just IS. That is why He told Moses to tell them that "I Am" sent him...

God IS existence.

 

[Isambard]

Then it is a cop-out. If God is before the universe, then he also before existence and thus before himself. He would have no purpose, no value, no nothing.

I am not fond of the answer "just because"

 

[StTherese]

Then it is a cop-out. If God is before the universe, then he also before existence and thus before himself. He would have no purpose, no value, no nothing.

I am not fond of the answer "just because"

Not true. God created the universe. Our universe has a beginning, God does not. Existence as you know it has a beginning, God does not. God IS existence. We have very limited knowledge of God. Our minds can not comprehend the totality of Him.

It is difficult to understand something that has no beginning, something that is outside of time.

Why does He have to have a purpose to exist? He wasn't created. He always was and always will be.

If God did not create the universe and sustain it, you would not exist. So, you owe your very existence to Him...His value is endless to creation.

I think, that it is in nothingness, that we begin to find God, since He is far beyond anything created or that our minds could conjure up about Him.

 

[Isambard]

Not true. God created the universe. Our universe has a beginning, God does not. Existence as you know it has a beginning, God does not. God IS existence. We have very limited knowledge of God. Our minds can not comprehend the totality of Him.

It is difficult to understand something that has no beginning, something that is outside of time.

Why does He have to have a purpose to exist? He wasn't created. He always was and always will be.

If God did not create the universe and sustain it, you would not exist. So, you owe your very existence to Him...His value is endless to creation.

I think, that it is in nothingness, that we begin to find God, since He is far beyond anything created or that our minds could conjure up about Him.

If I said an enormous rabbit did what God did, how would you go about proving God did instead of the giant rabbit?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Well, you see, saying that seems rather silly to me, because if a bunny rabbit is a creation of this universe, then how could something that has the properties of our existence create this existence? Unless you mean to say that the Bunny has the qualities of such a divine being that could create our existence (i.e. omnipresence, omnipotence, exemption from our laws, etc.) and just created bunnies in his image, and decided to make humans on the side. Of course, I don't see bunnies carrying around bunny bibles, but of course maybe they carry their bible through bunny language and pass it on generation through generation. That would suck, I'd hate to think we were killing brothers in faith....Of course, to prove God instead of the Giant rabbit is easy, because if the Giant Rabbit has the qualities of Godliness, a few of which were mentioned earlier then obviously he is God, so I would only need to prove one of them to prove the other...Actually, seeing God as a rabbit isn't a bad idea, it would promote the loving side of God I think....

 

[elcapitan]

He is not bound to the natral laws in which He created.

God has no beginning and therefore His existence can not be reasoned using the logic that applies to creation.

I'm sorry, but this sounds like a cop-out to me.
If God's existence is not subject to our logic and we can't understand the totality of Him, then any logical discourse about God's existence (e.g. this thread) is meaningless and pointless.

Perhaps you could have better worded your comments.