A Thought About New Testament Prophecy

[CharismaticLady]

The dispensing of new revelation was put into the hands of the Apostles of Christ, and the last Apostle was John, whose ministry finished at his death near the end of the first century. Therefore all the direct revelation that the Holy Spirit was going to give ended with John.

LOL Spoken like a die hard Presbyterian!

Any prophetic ministry that exalts any person other than Christ is false and the person is speaking out of his own heart and mind and not the Holy Spirit.

What is the name of the religion that you are talking about? Doesn't ring a bell.

 

[CharismaticLady]

As in still pursuing anti-Christ endeavours?

They are still blind, but not for long.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

LOL Spoken like a die hard Presbyterian!

What is the name of the religion that you are talking about? Doesn't ring a bell.

Modern day "Prophets" appear mainly in the type of religious circles that believe in and value the prophetic. I have no problem with the prophetic as such as long as the motivation for that type of ministry is to exalt and glorify Christ through it, and is seeking to encourage, comfort, exhort, and, in general, enhance the believers' faith in Christ.

But not all prophetic ministries do this. When particular men or women either set themselves up on a pedestal and give themselves prophetic authority, purporting to have a special ear to God that the normal believer doesn't have, then that is not exalting Christ, but exalting self. This is what makes that ministry false and the prophecies coming from their own thoughts and dreams and not from the Holy Spirit.

So, when a man gets up and prophesies that by 1978 the gay community in San Francisco will be burned up, which didn't happen and not only discredited the man but the prophetic ministry itself, and indirectly brought shame on the name of Christ, then that is the example of a false, self-exalting "Prophet".

So, instead of being a "Prophet", he is actually a loss!

What happens with these men and women is that they have built up such a reputation for themselves, that vulnerable believers think that because this person is famous and influential in the area of ministry and is able to draw great crowds to conferences, that their prophecies have to be true. And so, many are deceived and pointed in the wrong direction.

So, the very well-known evangelist who prophesied about seeing a 90ft high Jesus telling him things, people believed him because of his reputation in the ministry, when the very idea of such a vision is ridiculous, almost laughable if it didn't have such tragic results in the lives of many, and the discredit it brought on what was otherwise a very successful ministry, blessed of God.

So, we need to do what John tells us - not to believe every spirit but to test them to establish whether they are of God or not. We cannot take prophecies at face value. We must be as the Bereans, who searched the Scriptures daily to see if "these things be so".

If we ignore the written Scriptures as the basis of the testing of the spirits, we have no moderating foundation on which to make the appropriate tests, and therefore, we won't know whether the spirit behind a prophecy is really of the Holy Spirit or not.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So, when a man gets up and prophesies that by 1978 the gay community in San Francisco will be burned up, which didn't happen and not only discredited the man but the prophetic ministry itself, and indirectly brought shame on the name of Christ, then that is the example of a false, self-exalting "Prophet".

I don't know how a prophet could make such a big mistake. God doesn't lie, and if you only repeat what He says, then it will come to pass. That is what I use to pray with. I don't pray my wants for myself ever. I only listen, and when God speaks what I should pray, I repeat His words and it comes to pass. So you get 100% answered prayer. How else can you know what you are praying is His perfect will for you?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't know how a prophet could make such a big mistake. God doesn't lie, and if you only repeat what He says, then it will come to pass. That is what I use to pray with. I don't pray my wants for myself ever. I only listen, and when God speaks what I should pray, I repeat His words and it comes to pass. So you get 100% answered prayer. How else can you know what you are praying is His perfect will for you?

My comments about the false prophetic are not directed toward you, because in our discussions I note your sincerity and you really do seek to know and do God's will. So, I think you are following what Paul said in Romans, "prophesying according to your faith". If your heart is right with God, then what comes out of your mouth in the prophetic has to reflect that. But we must remember something else that Paul said - that "we prophesy in part". This means that we are not absolutely perfect in the prophetic, because we also "know in part". So, when we do move in the prophetic, it is imperfect, and not as some assume (wrongly) that New Testament prophetic has to be perfect. If it was, why do others have to judge it?

Therefore, anyone who moves in the prophetic has to be teachable, and accept that any prophetic word has imperfections in it. I don't go along with those who condemn a sincere godly person who gives a prophecy that has errors in it. That is part of the territory. This is why we must be subject to a team of brothers and sisters in Christ who will keep us on track, and not think that a prophecy we give is the pure word of God that has to be accepted without question and obeyed without hesitation.

The last person who got specific revelation through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was the Apostle John. When he died, that role ceased. Subsequent prophetic words are not by direct inspiration to enable the person to say "this is what the Lord is saying". This is because when the Lord speaks by direct inspiration, He is speaking Scripture. But after the completion of the book of Revelation, there is no more Scripture.

This is why I maintain that any prophecy must reflect what is already in the written Scriptures. It doesn't have to quote Scripture verbatum, but must be according to the spirit of Scripture and must not add new material not already stated in Scripture. There is a judgment upon anyone who adds to God's Word.

This is why my old pastor maintained that anyone who moves in the prophetic needs to be a person of the Word and of prayer.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But after the completion of the book of Revelation, there is no more Scripture.

This is why I maintain that any prophecy must reflect what is already in the written Scriptures. It doesn't have to quote Scripture verbatum, but must be according to the spirit of Scripture and must not add new material not already stated in Scripture. There is a judgment upon anyone who adds to God's Word.

You would need to define more clearly as to what constitutes 'adding to scripture' and is this the same as 'adding to God's Word'?

You concede that one is not just limited to quoting Scripture.

How much then is allowed before one is deemed to be a false prophet?

Agabus bought quite a personal word - are you comfortable with this???

 

[timothyu]

This is what makes that ministry false and the prophecies coming from their own thoughts and dreams and not from the Holy Spirit.

Guess the true test is if they die like the prophets of old.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well it happened in two high profile cases... Tragically they took many innocents with them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You would need to define more clearly as to what constitutes 'adding to scripture' and is this the same as 'adding to God's Word'?

You concede that one is not just limited to quoting Scripture.

How much then is allowed before one is deemed to be a false prophet?

Agabus bought quite a personal word - are you comfortable with this???

Prophecy involving encouragement, comfort and exhortation are not those adding to Scripture. Agabus brought a prophetic exhortation to Paul. He wasn't adding to the existing revelation of Scripture.

Also, the prophetic is for the edification of believers. It is not for unbelievers. It is the preaching of the gospel that is for unbelievers. Although Paul did say that someone coming into a Christian meeting where all were prophesying, would fall down and worship God because the secrets of his heart would be made bare. Paul does not define whether the person is a believer or an unbeliever. People naturally assume that it could be an unbeliever, but that could be just a guess.

There is no example anywhere in the New Testament that the prophetic was to be directed at unbelievers or secular governments. I believe that teaching that it is, is actually adding to the Scripture something that isn't there.

Other examples of adding to Scripture is a prophecy that was given that there are 9 persons in the Trinity, or a prophecy given to a person engaging in willful sinful practice that God is blessing him or her.

There is a Youtube example of a prophecy given over a man in a conference about how he is a man of God and that God is blessing him. Then the man told the people that they must believe the gospel and have faith in the finished work of Christ. The woman who gave the original prophecy, then gave another one saying that he has a demon! Then she got security to throw him out of the conference. So, which prophecy was correct? And what you think of a woman "prophet" who has someone giving the true gospel of Christ thrown out of her service?

Any prophecy given that a person is guaranteed healing, prosperity or a happy, uneventful and productive life has to be false, because the Scripture does not guarantee that at all. It says that in the world, we will have tribulation. A true prophecy would be that the person will go through hard and difficult times in his life, suffer loss, bereavement and poverty, but not to fear or be discouraged because Jesus Christ has overcome the world and will be with him as he goes through his valley of the shadow of death.

Jesus gave a true prophecy over Peter, that Satan has desired to sift him like wheat, but He has prayed for him that his faith fails not. In fact, Satan tried his best, killing James and throwing Peter into prison in order to have him killed as well, except that an angel broke him out of prison. Peter then got confused by his Judaizm and Paul had to rebuke him in front of everyone, and at the end of his life was crucified upside down. I don't think that Peter would have believed a prophesy that told him that he would be prosperous and live a happy uneventful life.

Paul would not have accepted a prophecy telling him that God guaranteed healing for him. It is known that while he was planting the Galatian churches he was suffering a medical condition that caused him to be ill, and that the Galatian believers supported him in his ministry and looked after him. When he got to Corinth, he was suffering weakness, and in Asia was so much under stress that he despaired of life. He would never have accepted a prophecy that encouraged him to confess healing, health and strength in the face of his illness, weakness, and stress brought about by exhaustion.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Guess the true test is if they die like the prophets of old.

Many did during the Roman persecutions. All the Apostles, except John were martyred. And it is still going on in Muslim countries.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Oscarr, I find your presentation of what is 'Kosher' and what is not in the matter of Prophecy, rather circular, and I don't see justification for some of your claims in scripture.

If I had a Prophetic disposition in your church I would be most uncomfortable.

A better approach is to foster a loving environment wherein those learning to operate wisely in their gift could make mistakes and learn without being afraid to bring a prophetic offering for risk of contracting the Plagues of Rev 22:18.

Case in point, I had an accurate word about the War in Sarajevo breaking out six months before it happened. I would be hesitant to deliver such a word in your church as it might be deemed to be beyond the bounds of exhortation.

In my experience the least among us often have the purest prophetic offering if the unity and love is there.

Sadly legislative measures crush the spirit of such folk when they just need gentle correction and it is not the teachers who should be correcting but the prophets themselves.

 

[CharismaticLady]

My comments about the false prophetic are not directed toward you, because in our discussions I note your sincerity and you really do seek to know and do God's will. So, I think you are following what Paul said in Romans, "prophesying according to your faith". If your heart is right with God, then what comes out of your mouth in the prophetic has to reflect that. But we must remember something else that Paul said - that "we prophesy in part". This means that we are not absolutely perfect in the prophetic, because we also "know in part". So, when we do move in the prophetic, it is imperfect, and not as some assume (wrongly) that New Testament prophetic has to be perfect. If it was, why do others have to judge it?

Therefore, anyone who moves in the prophetic has to be teachable, and accept that any prophetic word has imperfections in it. I don't go along with those who condemn a sincere godly person who gives a prophecy that has errors in it. That is part of the territory. This is why we must be subject to a team of brothers and sisters in Christ who will keep us on track, and not think that a prophecy we give is the pure word of God that has to be accepted without question and obeyed without hesitation.

The last person who got specific revelation through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was the Apostle John. When he died, that role ceased. Subsequent prophetic words are not by direct inspiration to enable the person to say "this is what the Lord is saying". This is because when the Lord speaks by direct inspiration, He is speaking Scripture. But after the completion of the book of Revelation, there is no more Scripture.

This is why I maintain that any prophecy must reflect what is already in the written Scriptures. It doesn't have to quote Scripture verbatim, but must be according to the spirit of Scripture and must not add new material not already stated in Scripture. There is a judgment upon anyone who adds to God's Word.

This is why my old pastor maintained that anyone who moves in the prophetic needs to be a person of the Word and of prayer.

I appreciate that. And this is what I would like to see you post. The baby, your roots; not focusing so much on the bath water.

Let me show you what the Lord revealed to me about 1 Corinthians 13, the Cessationist's favorite foundational verse. I say, verse because they are so focused on one or two verses that they fail to see the context, let alone let the context interpret it correctly. And when I say the Lord revealed something to me, I'm not just saying that I think God revealed something to me, I KNOW He did. It went right through me, like it still does today when He speaks to me. It was the winter of 1971, and I was a die-hard Cessationist up until that revelation from the Spirit of Truth. And I was corresponding with a Charismatic girl who was trying to defend her side, and I was writing her back one afternoon with my Bible open to 1 Corinthians 13 blasting her with why that was just for the 1st century, the child stage of the church. But now we have grown up and have the whole Bible, the perfect Word of God. Ring any bells? This thinking is why, because tongues is included in this passage, many posters I've seen believe that tongues was only for the writing of the Scriptures, so is no longer needed, just as the prophetic and knowledge has changed now to the reading and preaching of the Word. The Scriptures are finalized. But there is also some baby they are tossing out, and have completely misunderstood what the perfect is.

The perfect is not just the Word of God, but God, Himself. That is what the Word of God points to, so even if you memorize and understand every word of the Bible, it is still like looking at Him through a dark glass. That part of the chapter referencing the dark glass we still have today; it wasn't fulfilled with the printing of the Bible as Cessationists believe. The Bible didn't give us perfect knowledge of HIM. Just like He knows us perfectly now, even to the number of hairs (we have left) on our head, that is how thoroughly we will know God when we are in His very presence in heaven. Notice when THEN is.

But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away....12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If I had a Prophetic disposition in your church I would be most uncomfortable.

Hi Carl, I haven't been following your conversation with Oscarr, but read this and could you explain "disposition" Do you mean unbelief?

 

[timothyu]

I don't think that Peter would have believed a prophesy that told him that he would be prosperous and live a happy uneventful life.

Considering that it was said Jesus taught an upside down Kingdom, contrary to the world of man, it is more than logical that those who used the ways of the world to gain, would not take kindly to a reverse society. The same would apply today as even more seek the golden fleece of man rather than the Kingdom. Those of a prosperity gospel would be adversarial to the will and ways of the Kingdom. Rather than loving all as self they would clearly see themselves as eagles soaring high over the turkeys. No wonder the Kingdom was clear to the oppressed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi Carl, I haven't been following your conversation with Oscarr, but read this and could you explain "disposition" Do you mean unbelief?

disposition
noun

1. 
   a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.
   "your sunny disposition has a way of rubbing off on those around you"

 

[CharismaticLady]

disposition
noun

1. 
   a person's inherent qualities of mind and character.
   "your sunny disposition has a way of rubbing off on those around you"

So how does that apply to the Presbyterian church he goes to?

 

[Carl Emerson]

What I said was...

If I had a Prophetic disposition in your church I would be most uncomfortable.

As I think you were saying - legislating because of the bathwater will crush the baby.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What I said was...


As I think you were saying - legislating because of the bathwater will crush the baby.

I don't focus on the bath water, so it doesn't affect my focus on the true baby. Regarding America and Israel, I like Jonathan Cahn.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What I said was...


As I think you were saying - legislating because of the bathwater will crush the baby.

While I was the senior elder of the church, I taught clearly that the gifts are for today, and for our church to remain alive we need them. Because I had some control over our guest speakers, I got some spirit-filled mates in to minister to us. One was Len Buttner, who is recognised as having the gift of prophecy. He gave the message, and then had a prophetic word for every person in the congregation. It was quite remarkable, and the feedback was very positive about the accuracy of those prophetic words. Every word he said was in keeping with the attitude and spirit of the Scriptures. Nothing he said was of "new revelation" that was not said or taught to someone in the Bible. Nor did any of the words encourage anyone to do anything or conduct themselves contrary to God's standards as clearly set out in the Scriptures. The tenor of the words in the main was that Christ was in control of their lives and they can totally trust Him.

But now others have taken control of the church, and I don't think that they would welcome that level of ministry today, which is a shame.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But now others have taken control of the church, and I don't think that they would welcome that level of ministry today, which is a shame.

Why didn't the congregation say something? Was there a split?