A Tall Idea

[LightWorker1967]

Tall and Sophia, I wish to offer a perspective on being progressive without leaving the church. I worry about circles getting smaller and truth becoming less inclusive.

I know you have specific issues with some of the 28 fundamental beliefs. And people have issues with you having issues! But at least you KNOW what the 28 are! Just try a quick survey in any church and ask people to rattle them off without a cheat sheet. The 28 are held as a collective consciousness – not as 28 disconnected objects. And whether this whole as represented by the 28 parts shifts or remains the same, it will happen through community. If not, we will bifurcate – which would be disappointing.

If people start to dig into scripture on their own, and without the assumptions of others, you get an incredibly diverse exegesis. But the partial illusion of a unity of interpretation does make a nice platform for a community to move together. Belief as a bridge to knowing.

There is a spirit of Adventism that transcends structure. But is, at the same time, inclusive of it. We can choose to not let a difference in our understanding of one fiber in the fabric get in the way of moving with God as a community. There is such beauty in the Adventist community. When Sophia and you leave, we loose a unique aspect of our community.

When traditionals lash out at progressives (labels, more labels) they do so because they are trying to protect a belief that is intrinsic to their experience of God. That's sacred. Without that belief, if feels like the path is lost. That's traumatic. This is an aspect of being human, not just being a traditional. If the "traditionals" weren't also "progressives" in their own way, they wouldn't be in some of the conversations I see in this forum and open to new ideas. If the "progressives" weren't also "traditionals" they wouldn't be in the church.

On a more practical note, if you leave, where will you go? From one limited but expanding circle to another limited but expanding circle? Senti expressed this in an earlier post when he said he probably wouldn't join another religious community if he left this one. A great example of this is the Ratzlaff group (Proclamation publication). In some ways their circle seems smaller now then before they left the SDA church. You might notice this by a predominate energy being the "liberation" (disruption) of practicing SDAs. That's not a very big circle.

So, another option, other than leaving, is staying and building on the aspects of Adventism you DO feel deeply connected to – focusing energy and action on what you can receive and contribute to a community you have deep roots in. Maybe you are here for a reason. Maybe it wasn't random!

If you stay, continue to explore on your own. You might discover something new about Adventism through experiences and insight outside of the circle. Then, when it's appropriate and when people ask, you can share it. And we expand.

Having said all of that, follow your heart!

 

[Jimlarmore]

Great advice and a great perspective but I think they have already left the denomination.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[tall73]

IJ
Jewelry
Remnant
Alcohol
Sabbath as test of loyalty
EGW
View on the 1k years



These are all things the church talks about constantly and which I no longer agree with or am unsure about. Why bother?

Of the churches here I visited they all used EGW's interpretation to direct the discussion in SS or to prove points in sermons. The sermon at one church mentioned such Christian essentials as not bringing gum to church and dressing properly. Another sermon preached on how you are not really a Christian when you believe but only once you have reached perfection.

Why would I stay for that? What possible good is it doing for me?

 

[LightWorker1967]

IJ
Jewelry
Remnant
Alcohol
Sabbath as test of loyalty
EGW
View on the 1k years



These are all things the church talks about constantly and which I no longer agree with or am unsure about. Why bother?

Of the churches here I visited they all used EGW's interpretation to direct the discussion in SS or to prove points in sermons. The sermon at one church mentioned such Christian essentials as not bringing gum to church and dressing properly. Another sermon preached on how you are not really a Christian when you believe but only once you have reached perfection.

Why would I stay for that? What possible good is it doing for me?

I wouldn't stay for only that either.

Tall, I'm not making a case specifically for Adventism. I'm more interested in a much large picture of where to from here.

And I think you add to the conversation.

 

[Sophia7]

I probably have more points of disagreement with the FBs than my husband right now, but beyond that I think there are systemic flaws in Adventism that have led to the development of such a stringent creed in the first place. I also think that Adventism focuses way too much on trying to convert other Christians to the "Sabbath truth" and telling them that they're going to get the mark of the beast if they don't accept it. I don't believe that I would be able to contribute much to Adventism anymore. My heart isn't in their version of spreading the Gospel.

Where to from here? We're just Christians. That's a much larger circle than Adventism.

 

[JonMiller]

I probably have more points of disagreement with the FBs than my husband right now, but beyond that I think there are systemic flaws in Adventism that have led to the development of such a stringent creed in the first place. I also think that Adventism focuses way too much on trying to convert other Christians to the "Sabbath truth" and telling them that they're going to get the mark of the beast if they don't accept it. I don't believe that I would be able to contribute much to Adventism anymore. My heart isn't in their version of spreading the Gospel.

Where to from here? We're just Christians. That's a much larger circle than Adventism.

I agree with this. But a lot of members in the adventist church do focus on Christianity, not adventism.

I don't think that the dog is so sick that it needs to be shot. And I do think that the adventists do emphasize some truth that other denominations no longer emphasize.

Often I hear people saying things I agree with, and then saying something that is exactly the opposite that is wrong 20 minutes later.

I do admit that 2 years ago I was almost to the point of trying other denominations.. I think a spirit filled church is very important (not to say that mine is completely, but I tihnk that there is spirit filled people there who I can see). I was even tihnking of trying a sunday chuch (not that I was thinking of rejecting the Sabbath, there is nothing wrong with worshiping on any day of the week).

JM

 

[JonMiller]

IJ
Jewelry
Remnant
Alcohol
Sabbath as test of loyalty
EGW
View on the 1k years

These are all things the church talks about constantly and which I no longer agree with or am unsure about. Why bother?

I have known members of the churchs I have attended for the last 15 years who had issues with those same things. Some churchs are even majority have issues, and there are some who have the standard 'liberal' Christian issues (miracles didn't really happen/etc). Also some who appear to hold to something a lot like deism.

If the church doesn't behave in a way you wish to support, I could see leaving, or if it wasn't pleasent to associate. Or if you found another church that was more in line with your beleifs.

For example: I think that the SDA church had some truth to the fact that alcohol isn't a good thing/etc, and instead of saying that it causes temptation and isn't healthy, the SDA church focuses on it as some great evil.. much more so than on the real sins that remain hidden in the heart (some of this is the evils of perfectionist doctrine... which is no longer held outside of 'traditional' circles).

JM
(I still average ~2 drinks with freinds a month)

 

[JonMiller]

I still might try other denominations because I can't seem to find any chruchs with activities for young adventist folk where I could get to know adventist women.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

I do admit that as far as doctrine/etc goes, notthing makes me want to search for a different denomination than some of the stuff I read here. The people who are 'historics'/etc in the church I attend don't often preach (although the church is conservative, and I do find many things I don't quite agree with).

JM
(like if the preacher added or removed a statement I would agree with no qualifications generally)

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I like what Lightworker said and it is probably the reason I have stayed. Of course I don't frequent the Adventist churches which would give sermons on the subject Tall mentioned. In fact I stay away from the Traditional Sabbath School classes as well. However in most churches I have chosen to attend there has been a class more oriented to progressive views or at least acceptance of ideas that are not simply traditional SDA.

I hate to see people like Tall and Sophia leave the denomination but then again I think it is incredibly hard to work for the denomination as a Pastor. Still I know Progressive Adventist who do remain. John McLarty the former editor of Adventist Today and the Chairman of the School of Theology at WWU Dave Thomas. So we are not without the presence of Progressive Adventist still in the working in the denomination. So it is possible.

 

[JonMiller]

When the SDA church has most of it's members be made up of people who are now less than 50, it will be a lot less traditional... or very hypocrital.

Or it will cease to be relevant membership wise.

JM

 

[Eila]

Where to from here? We're just Christians. That's a much larger circle than Adventism.

Yes It isn't about (as far as I'm concerned) finding a place that teaches everything I believe. You can attend a church and they may believe x, y, z that you don't agree with, but what does the church focus on and what is most important to you? I once asked a group of women from various Christian backgrounds if they agreed 100% with what their church taught. All but one said things like "no," "of course not," and said that it is not normal to agree with everything. Only one said that she agreed 100% and she was SDA. I thought that was interesting. Some teachings aren't big deals and some are deal-breakers. In other words, I can stay if they teach x or y, but if they start teaching a, b, or c then it is not the place for me.

I ran into a deal-breaker with Adventism and had to leave the Adventist church because my mission was in such conflict with the Adventist mission. It isn't about being in the "true" church, but being part of the body of Christ. Many churches of different beliefs do work together around the world for the sake of the Gospel. Last year I was walking down the street in my new neighborhood and I met a neighbor who was a Christian and there was an instant connection knowing that we were sisters in Christ. It didn't matter that she believed or taught different from I. The circle of Christianity is bigger than some might think.

 

[LightWorker1967]

JM
(I still average ~2 drinks with freinds a month)

And how many with strangers?

 

[JonMiller]

None currently. Last time I drank with strangers was in the summer.

JM

 

[LightWorker1967]

When the SDA church has most of it's members be made up of people who are now less than 50, it will be a lot less traditional... or very hypocrital.

Or it will cease to be relevant membership wise.

JM

At the moment I'm clinging (just barely) to something rather utopian – that we get better in understanding our tradition AND that we get better at evolving and growing.

 

[LightWorker1967]

I do admit that as far as doctrine/etc goes, notthing makes me want to search for a different denomination than some of the stuff I read here. The people who are 'historics'/etc in the church I attend don't often preach (although the church is conservative, and I do find many things I don't quite agree with).

JM
(like if the preacher added or removed a statement I would agree with no qualifications generally)

I empathize JM and yet I am personally challenged to be more aware of how people are feeling and thinking. That's part of why I'm in the forum at the moment.

Avoiding conversations and interactions with members of the SDA community – whether at one end of the spectrum or the other – is a great way to erode our community. Even if those conversations are painful and frustrating.

Creating the illusion of unity in the SDA community by controlling a small circle is a great way to make it all feel easier. For a while.

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

I stay because I feel that I have something to add to the Adventist faith-tradition, and it is where I grew up and met Jesus so I feel a sense of tradition. It was an Adventist college that has allowed and encouraged me to safely question by beliefs (I am guessing this is a rare thing) and where I was introduced to grace.

I have my questions, and I have often thought that I may well be in the process of cognitive dissonance. Maybe I will go through a paradigm shift in the future, I don't know. However, I haven't really had many problems with the "lifestyle issues" of the church like jewelry, food and music, because I find the church in Australia (well, my part of Australia) to be more open in these regards. You will find many people who wear rings for example.

 

[honorthesabbath]

When traditionals lash out at progressives (labels, more labels) they

do so because they are trying to protect a belief that is intrinsic to their experience of God. That's sacred. Without that belief, if feels like the path is lost. That's traumatic. This is an aspect of being human, not just being a traditional. If the "traditionals" weren't also "progressives" in their own way, they wouldn't be in some of the conversations I see in this forum and open to new ideas. If the "progressives" weren't also "traditionals" they wouldn't be in the church.

Please understand that it is NOT the TSDA's that 'lash out' first' It's the incessant attacks from the progs that trigger all this infighting. But you make good points that there is a bit of both aspects in all of us in the SDA church.

On a more practical note, if you leave, where will you go?

I have asked this question twice--but they refuse to answer that question.

Thanks you again for your input.

 

[honorthesabbath]

JM
(I still average ~2 drinks with freinds a month)

Yeah--and I'm still holding to my two hits of cocaine a month too!
Not bad huh? Oh-and when my friends see my do this--do you think I am giving them a good Christian example of Godly living? What do you think?

 

[tall73]

do so because they are trying to protect a belief that is intrinsic to their experience of God. That's sacred. Without that belief, if feels like the path is lost. That's traumatic. This is an aspect of being human, not just being a traditional. If the "traditionals" weren't also "progressives" in their own way, they wouldn't be in some of the conversations I see in this forum and open to new ideas. If the "progressives" weren't also "traditionals" they wouldn't be in the church.

Please understand that it is NOT the TSDA's that 'lash out' first' It's the incessant attacks from the progs that trigger all this infighting. But you make good points that there is a bit of both aspects in all of us in the SDA church.

I have asked this question twice--but they refuse to answer that question.

Thanks you again for your input.

I already got enough of the Traditional "questions" about my personal life. I didn't tell DL my employer's name before, and I won't tell you my church name now. It is foolish to give out personal info on the web.

For that matter I did not give out this sort of information before my questions with doctrine came up either. But no one seemed that worried about it then.

As to the question of "where will you go", there are places to go that do not enforce creeds.