A supernatural high?

Tamara224 · Aug 18, 2011

Beginning a service with a prayer to get drunk and high on the Holy Spirit might be a really good way to explain away actually being drunk and high.

I can imagine this guy drinkin and tokin back stage: "It's okay, man, we'll tell everyone we're just drunk on the Spirit. They'll believe anything."

That's not to say I really think that's what happened. I guess I'm a little jaded. But generally speaking, when people act drunk and high it's because they're drunk and high (on drugs and alcohol).

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Tamara224 said:
Beginning a service with a prayer to get drunk and high on the Holy Spirit might be a really good way to explain away actually being drunk and high.

I can imagine this guy drinkin and tokin back stage: "It's okay, man, we'll tell everyone we're just drunk on the Spirit. They'll believe anything."

That's not to say I really think that's what happened. I guess I'm a little jaded. But generally speaking, when people act drunk and high it's because they're drunk and high (on drugs and alcohol).

From my background the meetings never start that way, again to restate I have never been to Crowders meetings but I can easily tell you its not an act nor is it brought on by earthly substance abuse. And I do not do drugs and if I do drink its purely for taste.

I live in this bliss. What questions do u have?

Tamara224 · Aug 18, 2011

LogosRhema said:
From my background the meetings never start that way, again to restate I have never been to Crowders meetings but I can easily tell you its not an act nor is it brought on by earthly substance abuse. And I do not do drugs and if I do drink its purely for taste.

No offense, but I'm not the least bit interested in your hearsay and speculation. If you've never been to one of his meetings, you have no way of knowing what happens. So save your defense of your favorite celebrity because you're not qualified to be a witness.

Like I already said, I'm not accusing him of doing this.

Just pointing out how easy it would be. Sometimes we look really hard for supernatural explanations when the natural explanation is staring us right in the face. Maybe it's not God or satan. Maybe it's just carnality.

I live in this bliss.

Okay.

What about the fruits?

What fruits? Whose fruits?

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Tamara224 said:
No offense, but I'm not the least bit interested in your hearsay and speculation. If you've never been to one of his meetings, you have no way of knowing what happens. So save your defense of your favorite celebrity because you're not qualified to be a witness.

Like I already said, I'm not accusing him of doing this.

Just pointing out how easy it would be. Sometimes we look really hard for supernatural explanations when the natural explanation is staring us right in the face. Maybe it's not God or satan. Maybe it's just carnality.

Okay.

What fruits? Whose fruits?

Much of what is believed is parrallel to what John teaches and the offensive drunkenness. And I talk to John fairly regularly and he is no celebrity of mine.

Well it would seem you are judging by looks which isn't our measuring stick. Lol so what about the fruit?

Again, any questions I'm happy to answer.

Tamara224 · Aug 18, 2011

LogosRhema said:
Much of what is believed is parrallel to what John teaches and the offensive drunkenness. And I talk to John fairly regularly and he is no celebrity of mine.

Oh, good buddy, then. All the more reason for me not to be interested in hearing you defend him. Not only do you not have personal knowledge of the events, you're also not disinterested.

Well it would seem you are judging by looks which isn't our measuring stick. Lol so what about the fruit?

Actually, I withheld judgment.

But, again, what and whose fruits are you referring to?

Again, any questions I'm happy to answer.

Well, considering as how you didn't answer the questions I already asked.... that's looking unlikely, isn't it?

Ajax 777 · Aug 18, 2011

Gnostic blasphemy, nothing more.

As gazing upon raw sewage.

This should be what is known in many circles as a "no-brainer."
I strongly feel like the enemy doesn't get much more obvious than this.

But then I am one such man upon whom much calamity fell
because of the "drug culture," and there is nothing cultured about drugs
or the people who choose them.

We are to avoid even the appearance of evil, not send out confusing messages
and set ungodly precedents to make the Gospel more "user-friendly." It's going to offend people.
That's the point: it's about JESUS, not us.
Our LORD has not changed, but this is a Jesus I have never heard of... and I bet I'm not the only one.

This man is full of all such contradiction. He promotes all manner of blasphemy. Sorry
if the straight-laced, WYSIWYG approach to true Christian discipleship
has become too "Fundie" to be PC in these "evolved" times,
but people who call such evil to be good are headed for certain disaster.

This man needs serious, sober, and fervent prayer.

Tobias · Aug 18, 2011

LogosRhema said:
I live in this reality, tho it was not John who led me here. Instead of going by looks, since you guys do not know Him.

I would be happy to answer any questions about the drunken glory "doctrine".

Blissings

PS- everytime I hear someone say kudalini spirit, I can't help but laugh. People and there imaginations in attempting justifying the "truth" of their own beliefs over another. I will have no part in that. Regardless of what "level" one may be at, Christ is still central so it is not for me to justify myself over another.

First off, reps for the kundalini spirit comment! Welcome!

Ok, now for some questions. What is the "drunken glory' doctrine? I don't think any of us have heard of it. Which of course, makes it really difficult to properly judge a video such as this. (Especially when it has already been pre-judged for us!)

I take it though that this "drunken glory" thing is a lot bigger than just Crowder's ministry itself. Do you consider yourself a part of what he calls the "New Mystics"? My wife bought me a couple of his books, but I didn't do much more than skim through them.

Perhaps a link to an article or two that provides scriptural justification and a logical explanation for this doctrine would be in order. I probably could do a search myself, but if you know of something reputable that would narrow things down considerably.

Nice meeting you!

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Tamara224 said:
Oh, good buddy, then. All the more reason for me not to be interested in hearing you defend him. Not only do you not have personal knowledge of the events, you're also not disinterested.

Actually, I withheld judgment.

But, again, what and whose fruits are you referring to?

Well, considering as how you didn't answer the questions I already asked.... that's looking unlikely, isn't it?

I'm not defending John, I'm here representing what I know is taught and he is not the originator. And I did answer your question as you seem rather clueless as to my reference, and you did admit your imagination which was the asumption of a conclusion of what he taught from your own judgment of what was said.

I'm not here to split hairs nor do I care to represent John. But I do live in the drunken glory. To pass off anyone who believes this without first at least deciphering what is taught is blind and erroneous. Just because you are not experiencing an aspect that is different than what you know does not nullify the said experience. Unless you want to claim your doctrine is better, then please move on.

A lot of misrepresentation of what I believe is going on and I care to take the time to answer any honest questions.

Yitzchak · Aug 18, 2011

Tamara224 said:
Beginning a service with a prayer to get drunk and high on the Holy Spirit might be a really good way to explain away actually being drunk and high.

I can imagine this guy drinkin and tokin back stage: "It's okay, man, we'll tell everyone we're just drunk on the Spirit. They'll believe anything."

That's not to say I really think that's what happened. I guess I'm a little jaded. But generally speaking, when people act drunk and high it's because they're drunk and high (on drugs and alcohol).

It would not be the first time. On top of his other sins , Todd Bentley was getting drunk on alcohol during the Lakeland revival.

Here is a quote from John Arnot about Todd Bentley after it came out.

John Arnott Gives An Update RE: Todd Bentley

Todd has chosen to do something that is wrong according to Scripture, and his timing to announce it was equally inappropriate. Everyone is asking, "What happened?" "Why didn't anyone see this coming?" We are making the answers to those questions a matter of prayer, and are as shocked and saddened by what has just happened as you are. Furthermore, it has now come out that there has been some inappropriate behavior, both with excessive drinking and also with a female member of his staff. Please don't jump to conclusions or assume the worst, but this behavior is wrong before the Lord.

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Ajax 777 said:
Gnostic blasphemy, nothing more.

As gazing upon raw sewage.

This should be what is known in many circles as a "no-brainer."
I strongly feel like the enemy doesn't get much more obvious than this.

But then I am one such man upon whom much calamity fell
because of the "drug culture," and there is nothing cultured about drugs
or the people who choose them.

We are to avoid even the appearance of evil, not send out confusing messages
and set ungodly precedents to make the Gospel more "user-friendly." It's going to offend people.
That's the point: it's about JESUS, not us.
Our LORD has not changed, but this is a Jesus I have never heard of... and I bet I'm not the only one.

This man is full of all such contradiction. He has his own clothing line called
"Breaker Clothing" which promotes all manner of blasphemy. Sorry
if the straight-laced, WYSIWYG approach to true Christian discipleship
has become too "Fundie" to be PC in these "evolved" times,
but people who call such evil to be good are headed for certain disaster.

Check out Breaker Clothing Company - Clothed in the Joy of Jesus! - Street Wear Fashion - Wild, Crazy, & Drunk, Christian Clothing and form your own opinions.
This man needs serious, sober, and fervent prayer.

Breaker clothing is Red letter ministry (I believe) which is NOT to be confused with Crowders ministry, he recently made it publically known that he does not support RLM. Where's your source that Crowder did this website for these shirts? I see NOTHING referencing him.

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Tobias said:
First off, reps for the kundalini spirit comment! Welcome!

Ok, now for some questions. What is the "drunken glory' doctrine? I don't think any of us have heard of it. Which of course, makes it really difficult to properly judge a video such as this. (Especially when it has already been pre-judged for us!)

I take it though that this "drunken glory" thing is a lot bigger than just Crowder's ministry itself. Do you consider yourself a part of what he calls the "New Mystics"? My wife bought me a couple of his books, but I didn't do much more than skim through them.

Perhaps a link to an article or two that provides scriptural justification and a logical explanation for this doctrine would be in order. I probably could do a search myself, but if you know of something reputable that would narrow things down considerably.

Nice meeting you!

Thanks Tobias!

Nice to have someone here slower with the rod of justice. What Crowder is a part of (not THE leader, but spokesman for) the "glory movement". The glory doctrine is nothing official (I think?), but is centralized on the finished works of the cross. Have you heard of this teaching? If not, I can inform you further.

And I heard John does write some very intriguing books, though I have not taken the time to read them. Even if you walk away from it screaming heretic, you learn quite a bit about the church history and other interesting facts on our fore fathers. I do not identify myself as a mystic (old or new lol). I believe in the finished works of the cross, the drunkeness or bliss is a by product of our salvation and unity in Christ.

And that link the OP presented is by a heretic hunter. I am all for "exposing" lies, but if the main intent of your message is to discredit one particular teacher, then I will venture to say you have lost touch with Christ. And if you watch the other videos of this heretic hunter that's his main message. Sorry, but even tho I do not agree with modern day doctrine, I don't spend all of my time trying to "expose" the church. I'll let people come to their own conclusions, I'd rather preach on Christ and let grace teach people right and wrong. Much like how Paul addressed false teachers, he merely mentions them and says there is still a harvest "what more is there to say?".

This is a bit lengthy but I summarized the central belief in these glory groups. Keep in mind this a brief overview, I'm planning on doing some podcasts and articles following up. Read Hebrews 3-4. Very toasty good about the "rest" for us through God.

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=209663972381073

And it seems my Biblical references are not showing up in the article. <sigh> just figured that out lol they were showing last I knew.

Please continue to ask questions should you have any!

Blissings.

PS- Here's an unedited version of one of Crowders videos, one of my favorites I've picked out. You can see the others if you'd like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFP8vWYd7ww&feature=channel_video_title[/url

Ajax 777 · Aug 18, 2011

LogosRhema said:
Breaker clothing is Red letter ministry (I believe) which is NOT to be confused with Crowders ministry, he recently made it publically known that he does not support RLM. Where's your source that Crowder did this website for these shirts? I see NOTHING referencing him.

Red Letter Ministries is Brandon Barthrop, aka "Captain Whacked the Pirate Preacher" (sorry, Ben Adam)
and is cited on several websites as being a disciple of John Crowder.

One such source connecting the two:

The fruit of John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn. | Defending. Contending.

But otherwise, you're correct...they are two separate individuals. Therefore, I'll remove the reference from the quoted post.

Just the same, it's all part of the same movement. The rhetoric, the error, the damnable doctrine are all the same.
The Living and Holy One God is no respecter of persons. Where's YOUR source for Crowder's public disavowing of involvement with Barthrop and RLM?

Yitzchak · Aug 18, 2011

LogosRhema said:
Breaker clothing is Red letter ministry (I believe) which is NOT to be confused with Crowders ministry, he recently made it publically known that he does not support RLM. Where's your source that Crowder did this website for these shirts? I see NOTHING referencing him.

Brandon Barthrop is the guy who does the breaker clothing. That is the guy who teaches to give people the middle finger in the name of God. He calls it the apostolic middle finger of blessing. He walks around acting like he is high giving people the middle finger in the name of Jesus. He also sells a t shirt with Jesus doing drugs and one with Jesus giving people the middle finger. You can find these at breaker clothing.

These guys are their own worst enemy.

ALERT: John Crowder & Co. « Youth Ministries Alert

Not John Crowder. But another drunk and high in the " glory " movement guy.

Ajax 777 · Aug 18, 2011

Yitzchak said:
Not John Crowder. But another drunk and high in the " glory " movement guy.

My points exactly.

It's all the same cyanide Kool-Aid.

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Ajax 777 said:
Red Letter Ministries is Brandon Barthrop, aka "Captain Whacked the Pirate Preacher" (sorry, Ben Adam)
and is cited on several websites as being a disciple of John Crowder.

One such source connecting the two:

The fruit of John Crowder and Benjamin Dunn. | Defending. Contending.

But otherwise, you're correct...they are two separate individuals. Therefore, I'll remove the reference from the quoted post.

Just the same, it's all part of the same movement. The rhetoric, the error, the damnable doctrine are all the same.
The Living and Holy One God is no respecter of persons. Where's YOUR source for Crowder's public disavowing of involvement with Barthrop and RLM?

Brandon CLAIMS to be a disciple of John but is not. John recently posted a status on Facebook trying to explain to people that he does not affiliate himself or his ministry with RLM. This is due to erroneous and strange teaching that Brandon has began to teach which is not based on the finished works of the cross but has wandered away from the cross calling it "elementary" and "but a gateway". When I say STRANGE we are talking about having "sex" with God. Enough said?

As far as exclusive "article", I do not know of any. From conversation with John he has refrained from saying anything, but because RLM continually tries to affiliate themselves with him, which has harmed ministry opportunities, he is starting to take a stand. Ironically this status was within the past few days. And yes John has tried privately to correct Brandon but ended in failure. I believe his initial hesitation was in the good hope Brandon was being immature and would grow out of it.

LET ME BE CLEAR, Brandon does not believe the same thing this glory movement does. He centrally does not agree with the finished works of the cross thus alienating him from the glory movement. A wolf in sheep clothing, if you will.

I personally do not agree with Brandon either, very estranged teaching that I do not find the time worthy of even discussing. Unless of course it connects to your questions.

As far as Stacy Enoch, I do know of him and have not watch any of his videos. I find him hard to watch, just personal preference. But I will be meeting him this weekend. Curious to see who this man is.

LinuxUser · Aug 18, 2011

I watched the video it the OP and I hope it's okay if I post here. It appears he is drunk, on drugs, or has a physical problem.

Yitzchak · Aug 18, 2011

LinuxUser said:
I watched the video it the OP and I hope it's okay if I post here. It appears he is drunk, on drugs, or has a physical problem.

It is o.k. with me. I started the thread because I felt like some have gone too far to an extreme of just accepting anyone who comes in the name of Christ , no questions asked.

I have spoken in the past about going too far the other way and seeing a heretic behind every little disagreement.

If our list of heretics is zero , we should wonder if we are being too naive. If this guy is not a heretic , then who is ? What would be considered taking it too far ?

My hope is for a free discussion. I am glad to see a diversity in the posts.

Yitzchak · Aug 18, 2011

LinuxUser said:
I watched the video it the OP and I hope it's okay if I post here. It appears he is drunk, on drugs, or has a physical problem.

He is claiming that God is supernaturally causing him to act that way. His claim is that his strange behavior is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit working in his life.

LogosRhema · Aug 18, 2011

Yitzchak said:
He is claiming that God is supernaturally causing him to act that way. His claim is that his strange behavior is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit working in his life.

Read Acts 2, they literally thought they were drunk. To deny his experience as possibly authentic because it doesn't match your ideal Christian behavior is a bit blind, don't you think?

Yitzchak · Aug 18, 2011

LogosRhema said:
Read Acts 2, they literally thought they were drunk. To deny his experience as possibly authentic because it doesn't match your ideal Christian behavior is a bit blind, don't you think?

I have seen God do things that surprised me. I have read in the bible stories of God doing things that surprised me.

Possibly authentic might be a starting point for some. God is a supernatural God.

But upon closer examination , we can see more clearly whether it is from God or not. I do not blindly judge him based upon sectarian bias or personal prejudice. I pray about it and I do research and compare it to the bible. I did not dismiss it simply on the basis that it seems weird or strange to me.

Although I do think that strangeness is a valid factor to look at. If someone is intentionally strange on a regular basis , that is a warning sign. It is a warning sign of immaturity , at best. Or potentially of something even worse.

There are several warning signs with John Crowder. Call them red flags , if you like. in some cases , we see red flags in a ministry and yet we can be pleasantly surprised when we dig a little bit deeper and find that those red flags that we saw were not as bad as we thought. With John Crowder and Brandon Barthrop , when I dig deeper and look into their ministries , I find it to be even worse than my original concerns.

To answer your concern / question. I am not advising people to have a knee jerk response and base their decision upon outward appearance. I advise people to dig a little deeper and see for themselves , if they are not sure.

What I found when I dug a little deeper is that the problems are worse than just immature strange behavior. If I thought it was just immature behavior , I would not have posted this thread.

Let every person be fully persuaded in their own mind.

When I point out the strange behavior , I am pointing out a red flag. Nothing more and nothing less. But in this particular case , I have already decided that the red flag is the tip of the iceberg of even greater concerns.

A supernatural high?

Do you believe this stuff in the video is from God ?

This stuff is 100% evil, not from God at all

I have a concerns about it , but I am not sure

I have no idea whether this is God or not

I think it is probably God , but am not sure

I love this stuff. this is 100% God

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