A Startling Theological Puzzle !!!

[PhoenixRising]

There is a divine penalty for sin that God would pardon you of if you believe that Christ took the punishment for your sin on the cross ("justification by faith").

What is the value to God of God rendering a penalty upon the non-believing sinner? Is the Reformed answer that he regards himself as glorified by their suffering because it is imposed as a penalty for evil?

 

[PapaLandShark]

What does the Bible say about why God punishes the unregenerate sinner? There is my answer.

 

[strengthinweakness]

God does all things, all things, for His glory. When God saves a rebellious, God-hating person from His just wrath and eternal punishment in Hell, He is glorified by His mercy. When God leaves a rebellious, God-hating person in the sin that that person already loves, He is glorified by His justice. No one can legitimately claim before God that he (or she) has received an inordinate punishment from God. We either receive mercy that we don't deserve, or we receive punishment that we do deserve. In His mercy and in His justice, God is glorified. Again, He does all things for His glory. Many of today's feel-good "evangelical" pastors and authors want people to believe that the Gospel is all about them. "God saved you because you are of great worth." "God saved you so that you could have self-fulfillment, a better self-image, less anxiety, etc." These lies are not the true Gospel. God saves sinners for His glory, so that they will glorify Him, who alone is worthy to be glorified. He saves sinners, not primarily so that they can spend their time thinking of how great they are, but so that they can realize, and experience personally, how great He and His mercy are. Salvation is ultimately for the glory of God-- it is not so that sinners can glory fundamentally in themselves. Salvation does bring peace, contentedness, and a proper view of oneself, but these are by-products of being saved. They are not primarily why God saves sinners.


One last thought-- we must keep the Biblical truth of God's sovereignty over the fate of sinners in tension with the Biblical truth that anyone who turns to the Lord in repentance and faith will not be turned away by Him. Non-Reformed Christians often portray Reformed believers as worshiping a grotesque God who simply, arbitrarily refuses to save sinners who actually want to be saved. This is untrue. It is a caricature of the Reformed (Biblical) position. God will accept anyone who turns to Him in repentance for sins and who places his (or her) trust in Christ's substitutionary sacrifice for sinners on the Cross. God never turns away any truly repentant sinner who wants to be saved. Anyone who states that Reformed theology teaches otherwise is simply wrong.

 

[cygnusx1]

There is a divine penalty for sin that God would pardon you of if you believe that Christ took the punishment for your sin on the cross ("justification by faith").

What is the value to God of God rendering a penalty upon the non-believing sinner? Is the Reformed answer that he regards himself as glorified by their suffering because it is imposed as a penalty for evil?

If it is a choice between God forsaking the sinner or Him Forsaking His Law , the sinner is going to be forsaken!

"He will in no wise clear the guilty"

That is why we preach Christ Crucified .... not as some example , or some government theory , but as a PENAL substitute .

 

[PhoenixRising]

What does the Bible say about why God punishes the unregenerate sinner? There is my answer.

What is it that the Bible says about this matter? What is the value to God in the suffering of the non-believing sinner generated by his imposition of a penalty for sin upon them?

Is it a glorification to God, as it so often is to us, to render suffering upon the wicked? Is it not cruelty to perceive value in the suffering of the non-believing sinner, save it be sympathetically with its curative quality?

Keep in mind, these are just questions I have and are not arguments or claims.

 

[cygnusx1]

What is it that the Bible says about this matter? What is the value to God in the suffering of the non-believing sinner generated by his imposition of a penalty for sin upon them?

Is it a glorification to God, as it so often is to us, to render suffering upon the wicked? Is it not cruelty to perceive value in the suffering of the non-believing sinner, save it be sympathetically with its curative quality?

Keep in mind, these are just questions I have and are not arguments or claims.

how is it that unless men see a reason that equates to what they think God should do that they deny it can be so ?

Today millions are conditioned (brainwashed even) to be so sympathetic with criminals that they wink at the sin , they will here only about so called "re-habiliatation" and here nothing of punishment .

But is this logical to declare a crime null and void , and seek the good of the criminal ?

First and foremost crime , sin and evil exist , and sinning against someone amounts to a debt!

When it was said that the Messiah would come and level all things , make the mountains low and raise the valleys , was this not an indication of mercy and Justice?

How is it today millions expect mercy and look confounded at the demands of Justice ?

The demands of Justice are unstopable , thorough and severe.

Many have gone so far as to repudiate the Justice of Jesus dying for sin , as a PENAL substitute .
Yet scripture affirms that God through the death of Christ was able to remain Just and to justify those who believe upon His Son.
But what need is there of God to remain Just in the redemption of sinners?
The Law (of Moses) was introduced not to make us aware of sin , we already sinned, but to increase the sin.

Now getting back to the humanist concept that crulety for humans must mean cruelty for God .
this does not follow at all , is it not clear that Murder is sin , yet when God takes a life He commits no sin!
The requirements of God's Law , and His principle of Justice is that all debts shall be cancelled ONLY if they are fully payed for.
For the believer , we know that Christ has payed fully for our sin, we are no longer under condemnation.
For the unbeliever , he shall be sentenced to a "prison" until he shall pay the last penny , which shall be never.

It should forever be born in mind that you do not see sin for what it is , not in total , not how God sees it , our eyes are dim , our sense of Holiness vague , and our awareness of guilt is partial.
but on that great day , that terrible day of Judgment all eyes shall see , senses shall be so in line with God that praise not indifference shall be upon the hearts and minds and lips of all who see God repay every evil , until then we walk by faith.

 

[PhoenixRising]

I'm still thinking about this issue, and I am wondering how to understand the operation of God's scheme of "lex talionis" -- penalty for sin. If you have any more insights on this issue, please share them!

 

[McWilliams]

I'm still thinking about this issue, and I am wondering how to understand the operation of God's scheme of "lex talionis" -- penalty for sin. If you have any more insights on this issue, please share them!

All that happens is to be 'to the glory of God the Father', as in Phil 2:5-11, all will come to acknowledge Him as Lord, either now as Savior or at the judgment as God and King! Phil 2:5-11 says:

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men, and being found in appearnance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. There God also has highly exalted HIm and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shold bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.'


God highly exalted Christ and expects all the universe to do the same and they will, either now or later under His judgment and wrath! " It is a mandate to worship Jesus Christ! This includes the angels in heaven Rev 4:2-9
, the spirits of the redeemed Rev 4:10,11, obedient believers on earth Rom 10:9, the disobedient rebels on earth 2 Thes 1:7-9, demons and lost humanity in hell 1Peter 3:18-22. Everyone will eventually do this in response to Christ's Lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully."
(quote from NKJV John McArthur study bible)

The very purpose of Christ's exaltation is the glory of God the Father! Mt. 17:5, John 5:23, 13:31,32, 1Cor 15:28

 

[PhoenixRising]

It doesn't seem to me that penalizing the non-believing sinner is going to produce anything valuable. All it will produce is the sinner's suffering. If the suffering in itself is regarded as valuable to God (because, for example, he regards it as bring glory to him), then it would appear that he is cruel. If the suffering in itself is not regarded as valuable in itself, then rendering the penalty is senseless. God is doing things that he told us was cruelty -- retaliating and paying back evil for evil.

It is hard to produce any reasonable explanation for the doctrine of a penalty for sin, but it is in the Bible, so I suppose we must all believe it. And more than believe it, we must be delighted by the idea of God glorifying himself by penalizing the non-believing sinner. I'm not sure I am looking forward to becoming a "regenerate Christian" who has these spiritual affections.

 

[inchristalone221]

It doesn't seem to me that penalizing the non-believing sinner is going to produce anything valuable.

Your measure of value is very human. God does not need to punish sinners to fulfill some need of His. He punishes them because it is His will, He does not need anything.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Your measure of value is very human. God does not need to punish sinners to fulfill some need of His. He punishes them because it is His will, He does not need anything.

But I never said that he needed to punish humans, I was very careful not to frame the issue in this way. All I ever said was what you said -- that there is a divine penalty for sin. God penalizes non-believing sinners because it is an expression of his will.

 

[inchristalone221]

God penalizes non-believing sinners because it is an expression of his will.

Quite right, and is it not illogical to think that a part of God's will is somehow unjust, since God is the measure of justice itself?

 

[PhoenixRising]

Quite right, and is it not illogical to think that a part of God's will is somehow unjust, since God is the measure of justice itself?

Yes, that is what the Bible says: God regards himself as glorified by the suffering of the sinners because it is imposed as a penalty for their evil.

God is virtuous in doing something -- rendering suffering as a retaliation for wrong -- that humans would be wicked for doing. God would be virtuous in doing something that would not be right in a man -- render penalties of suffering upon sinners.

Keep in mind, I am not arguing against the Protestant position, I am just describing it.

 

[JJB]

Are earthly judges "Honorable"? In courts of law we call them "Your Honor." Why do you suppose it is we do that? Because they are rendering penalties upon wrongdoers. Apparently, we do not consider judgment upon wrongdoers as evil.

These are the arguments put forth typically by universalists. Humans have more honor than God. It is quite shocking to see ppl think so highly of themselves!

You are misrepresenting the Protestant position.

 

[PhoenixRising]

Are earthly judges "Honorable"? In courts of law we call them "Your Honor." Why do you suppose it is we do that? Because they are rendering penalties upon wrongdoers. Apparently, we do not consider judgment upon wrongdoers as evil.

Human judges imprison criminals in order to protect the public from them and to deter people from doing criminal actions. (Specific and general deterrence.) American judges used to hope that prison sentences could be "correctional," but now the hope is dwindling that a human institution could do anything deliberate to aid in the process of correcting a vicious person (although some people do reform while in prison).

A legal approach of "lex talionis" -- penalty for wrong -- has gone out of the western legal systems along with the rack and the screw. To the degree it continues to exist at all, it is most likely lingering because of the lingering belief that somehow God operates in like manner and thus humans are right in imitating God.

Judges do not render penalties upon criminals as an end in itself. American judges don't imagine that the suffering of the prisoner is any atonement for the wrong that the prisoner did. They don't imagine that the prisoner's suffering weighs anything at all against the wrong that was done. They don't imagine that the prison time has put to an end the evil that the prisoner wrought. They don't imagine that they are executing anything that approaches divine justice.

They are just putting people in prison in order to deter and hopefully correct. Such an effort is probably about as good as we can possibly be with the limited power, money, wisdom, sympathy, and love that we have. It generally avoids cruelty and sadism (but these occur more than they ought to).

 

[PhoenixRising]

You are misrepresenting the Protestant position.

JJB -- I would love it if you would explain to me how I am misrepresenting Protestant theology!

 

[Rick Otto]

Simple. Your description is calibrated to your own values, not God's.
You describe with prejudice. You believe God should be "fair" instead of "cruel".
Justice ain't about either. The Lord gives, & the Lord takes away... blessed be the Lord.

So if I was a mosquito suckin' my dinner out of your arm, you would gently remove me and let me fly away? If you walked in on me raping & killing your spouse & children, would you gently suggest I stop? Maybe offer to play Scrabble with me instead?
Mercy trumps justice, but without justice there IS no mercy.

"Human judges imprison criminals in order to protect the public from them and to deter people from doing criminal actions."
I thought it was because they DID criminal actions.
So you promote arresting people BEFORE they commit crimes? Sounds a little like cruelty to me, not fair at all. Sounds like you think everyone should be locked up before they do something wrong.
Mind you, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just deSCRIBing your position.