A Stance on the Mary "Bait" Questions

[lionroar0]

Since the Reformation over 500 years of Marian devotion has contributed more to division than to unity among the various Christian denominations, if it could ever be set aside... humungous steps in ecumenism could be taken...

Since protestanism was already full steamed and under a few hundred years before the Marian dogmas. How could they contribute to the division of churches that were already seperated frm the CC

This is a non-sequitor.

Peace

 

[PaulAckermann]

The Reformers themselves honored Mary


Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God
Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:
"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1
Perpetual Virginity
Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.
"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2
The Immaculate Conception
Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:
"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3
Assumption
Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:
"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4
Honor to Mary
Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5
"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.
​

John Calvin:

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7
"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.
"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9
"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10
​

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11
"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.
"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13
"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14
"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15
"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16
​

See http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

 

[PaulAckermann]

Since protestanism was already full steamed and under a few hundred years before the Marian dogmas. How could they contribute to the division of churches that were already seperated frm the CC

This is a non-sequitor.

Peace

Amen!

Mary is already starting to bring unity back to Protestants and Catholics.


See http://ctlibrary.com/11531


This article by Christianity Today, is a conversation with a dean of a Baptist Seminary, who calling his fellow Protestants to start honoring Mary (Sorry, if you want to read the full artcle, it is going to cost you).

How about that?


And not only that, but many Protestants, present company except, are turning to honoring Mary, as is said in a Times article. So Mary is not bringing division, except here on this forum.

A Presbyterian pastor in Xenia, Ohio, plans to preach on the Annunciation to Mary during his Good Friday service this year, owing to an overlap on the calendar.​

• Beverly Gaventa, a professor at Princeton Theological Seminary (also Presbyterian) has written a book on Mary and edited a collection of essays on Mary by feminist biblical scholars.​

• Articles favoring new attention for Mary have appeared in Christianity Today (evangelical Protestant) and The Christian Century (mainline or liberal Protestant).​

• A sermon on Mary was preached in a "mighty pulpit" by John Buchanan, senior pastor of Chicago's Fourth Presbyterian Church.​

• Several theologians say Mary is gaining popularity among Protestants.​

• Mary plays a significant role in the New Testament gospels.​

• An evangelical writer has devoted a chapter of his book to Mary's Magnificat.​

• Icons of Mary are showing up on the walls of Protestant divinity schools.​

• Some Protestants have a deep personal devotion to Mary.​

• The influx of Hispanics into American Protestantism is having a small impact on interest in Mary.​

See http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/protestantmary.htm

How about that?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Reformers themselves honored Mary




Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God​

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:​

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1​

Perpetual Virginity​

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.​

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2​

The Immaculate Conception​

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:​

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3​

Assumption​

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:​

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4​

Honor to Mary​

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.​

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5​

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.​

​

John Calvin:

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7​

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.​

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9​

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10​

​

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11​

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.​

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13​

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14​

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15​

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16​

​

See http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

1. To honor Mary and to affirm the Catholic dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity and Assumption of Mary are unrelated. You seem to be confusing honoring Our Blessed Lady with agreeing with the Catholic denomination. Apples and oranges, my full brother in Christ.


2. While it is true that Luther and Calvin personally agreed with some of these views, neither of them imposed them on others and they are not required views in any Protestant denomination known to me. There are Lutherans who believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (for example) and some who don't, but we don't excommunicate brothers or sisters either way.


3. While I honor and esteem Our Blessed Lady - the Mother of God - above all, and while I adore, revere, venerate and in a certain sense worship her, that does not mean I agree with the Catholic denomination that the Marian dogmas are therefore correct. IF they are, they MAY be honoring her (I'm not at all sure about that), but if they are false, they CERTAINLY are dishonoring her - and are disrespectful, rude and hurtful, to Our Lady and to her Son, Jesus. (It amazes me that this doesn't even seem to occur to Catholics). Therefore, it seems relevant to the Protestant as to whether these opinions (not from Scripture or the earliest Fathers) are true or not. This concern is NOT because we disrespect her but rather because we DO respect her.




My Protestant perspective....


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[KarrieTex]

Actually I didnt say that. But St Ignatius who happened to know the apostle John, who said that. So no, it is him that is telling you that,,

You find them offensive.. Well, I am telling you what I find offensive. You can make your own post on what you find offensive on another thread instead of hijacking my thread and changing the subject...

But I have told many I would take them down if the faith would stop being insulted.... and compared to what I am talking about, it isn't much


I find it interesting how quickly you've changed the subject so..

I hate to add onto what you consider hijacking BUT...

If you want others to stop beating up on Mary (which by the way too many people are paying attention to on here) then you also need to not beat up on those who are not Catholic.

I do not take your request seriously for you just offended myself and the church in which I worship in. As for some of the quotes you are pointing to, you are also bashing my faith.

In essence, I have not bashed Mary and you have bashed my church. I believe the phrase do unto others as you would have them do to you is applicaple to this.

 

[PaulAckermann]

1. To honor Mary and to affirm the Catholic dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity and Assumption of Mary are unrelated. You seem to be confusing honoring Our Blessed Lady with agreeing with the Catholic denomination. Apples and oranges, my full brother in Christ.

Did you read the quotes?

On the Immaculate Conception, Luther himself said “"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin”. That sure sounds like Immaculate Conception to me!

On the Perpetual Viiginity, Luther said “"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." How can this not be the Catholic doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary? Luther says she is still a virgin! And Calvin translated the “brothers of Christ” to the the “relatives of Christ”. That is exactly the argument we Catholics have used!


2. While it is true that Luther and Calvin personally agreed with some of these views, neither of them imposed them on others and they are not required views in any Protestant denomination known to me. There are Lutherans who believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (for example) and some who don't, but we don't excommunicate brothers or sisters either way.



If Luther and the Reformers were alive today, they would order the executions of all your Protestant brothers and sisters on this forum who believe in believer-only baptism and who believe that we have a free will. I am not saying that historically Catholics have been faultless in imposing their beliefs on others, but neither are the Protestants guiltless in this.


Luther and the other Reformers advocated the drowning of Anabaptists. Jon Calvin ordered the execution of Servitus simple for believe that man had a free will to accept or reject Christ. Calvin instituted a town called Geneva, where a man could be executed for blasphemy ! Working on Sunday was treated as a crime!


It sure seems that they did “impose” their views on others. Here are some quotes:


Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches . . . and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound . . . to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders . . . Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then . . . we conclude that . . . the stubborn sectaries must be put to death.

- Martin Luther


Even though the Anabaptists do not advocate anything seditious or openly blasphemous" it was, in his opinion, "the duty of the authorities to put them to death.

- Melancthon

3. While I honor and esteem Our Blessed Lady - the Mother of God - above all, and while I adore, revere, venerate and in a certain sense worship her, that does not mean I agree with the Catholic denomination that the Marian dogmas are therefore correct. IF they are, they MAY be honoring her (I'm not at all sure about that), but if they are false, they CERTAINLY are dishonoring her - and are disrespectful, rude and hurtful, to Our Lady and to her Son, Jesus. (It amazes me that this doesn't even seem to occur to Catholics). Therefore, it seems relevant to the Protestant as to whether these opinions (not from Scripture or the earliest Fathers) are true or not. This concern is NOT because we disrespect her but rather because we DO respect her.

A Jew could argue the same way. A Jew could say that it is not disrespecting Jesus by saying the He was just a man. A Jew could argue that because respects Jesus so much that he cannot put up with this “nonsense” about Jesus being God.

Also, as I showed, Luther and the Reformers did impose their view, to the point of death, on those who disagreed with infant baptism and predetination. It just could be that the reason that the Reformers did not impose their view on Marian doctrines not because they were so tolerant (if they were so tolerant, why did they kill the original Baptists?). Mybe they did not impose their Marian doctrine, because they did not need to impose them on anyone. There is no evidence that at the time of the Reformers, that there was anyone who opposed them on the Marian doctrines. Opposition to the Marian doctrines did not come until much later.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Oh, I think they are definately the exception for sure. I was simply cite the most extreme forms of Marian degradation out there.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mary.html

why are you reading that kind of nonsense anyway? The whole page is creepy, and I didn't even take time to read hardly anything..just the page creeped me out...solution...don't go to threads/pages like that...

 

[BBAS 64]

The Reformers themselves honored Mary



Martin Luther:

Mary the Mother of God​

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:​

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1​

Perpetual Virginity​

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary's perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was "born of a woman" alone.​

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2​

The Immaculate Conception​

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary's divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:​

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."3​

Assumption​

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:​

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4​

Honor to Mary​

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.​

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5​

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent's head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.​

​

John Calvin:

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."7​

"Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ."8 Calvin translated "brothers" in this context to mean cousins or relatives.​

"It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor."9​

"To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son."10​

​

Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11​

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity.​

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13​

"Christ ... was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14​

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15​

"The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."16​

​

See http://www.mariology.com/sections/reformers.html

Good Day, Paul

How many times do these have to be gone over.....

http://www.ntrmin.org/Luthers Theology of Mary.htm

This will get you started.....

IN Him,

Bill

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. To honor Mary and to affirm the Catholic dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity and Assumption of Mary are unrelated. You seem to be confusing honoring Our Blessed Lady with agreeing with the Catholic denomination. Apples and oranges, my full brother in Christ.

Did you read the quotes?

On the Immaculate Conception, Luther himself said “"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin”. That sure sounds like Immaculate Conception to me!

On the Perpetual Viiginity, Luther said “"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin." How can this not be the Catholic doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary? Luther says she is still a virgin! And Calvin translated the “brothers of Christ” to the the “relatives of Christ”. That is exactly the argument we Catholics have used!

You just confirmed my point, my brother.

Did you notice who said those things? Luther, not God. WE think there's a difference, don't you? I've already said - as have several others - that Luther believed these things. Everyone knows that. Some Lutherans agree with him, some don't. It's not dogma in the Lutheran church.

2. While it is true that Luther and Calvin personally agreed with some of these views, neither of them imposed them on others and they are not required views in any Protestant denomination known to me. There are Lutherans who believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (for example) and some who don't, but we don't excommunicate brothers or sisters either way.

If Luther and the Reformers were alive today, they would order the executions of all your Protestant brothers and sisters on this forum who believe in believer-only baptism and who believe that we have a free will. I am not saying that historically Catholics have been faultless in imposing their beliefs on others, but neither are the Protestants guiltless in this.


Luther and the other Reformers advocated the drowning of Anabaptists. Jon Calvin ordered the execution of Servitus simple for believe that man had a free will to accept or reject Christ. Calvin instituted a town called Geneva, where a man could be executed for blasphemy ! Working on Sunday was treated as a crime!

I KNOW this is a really difficult thing for Catholics, but Protestants allow people to voice opinions - even passionately. We don't categorically consider that all such are infallible and unaccountable. Yes, Lutherans are apt to regard Luther with some esteem, but he was no Pope. He was a mere mortal -- and sinful at that. He demanded that we hold him accountable to God's holy inerrant written Word, and we do. It might be good to keep that in mind when directing things to Protestants.


And I'm at a loss to know what that has to do with my reverence for Mary or with providing substantiation for the Catholic dogmas about her. After all, IF those are not correct, then you are dishonoring and disrespecting Our Blessed Lady, you are being rude and hurtful to the Mother of God, AND to her Son, Jesus. Protestants do not think that the issue of correctness is moot. IMHO, you are confusing the issue of whether these dogmas of the CC are correct with our esteem for the Holy Mother. Apples and oranges, my full brother.




I have often shared my view of Our Lady. For some reason, this matters not to you. You seem convinced that if we do not agree with the Catholic denomination that these teachings are dogmas, then we must not honor her. You are wrong. Caring whether something about her is right or wrong is not because we disrespect her, it's because we respect her.



My perspective.


Pax!


- Josiah




.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

do you get the idea he started this thread to do exactly what he puts others down for?? Like..WHY bother starting this..KNOWING it is going to blow up into this kind of nonsense...and since he isn't listening to anyone...What is the POINT???

 

[Tyndale]

Hello, but what is a A Stance on the Mary "Bait" Questions ?..what do people mean by this? Bait questions?

 

[Renton405]

do you get the idea he started this thread to do exactly what he puts others down for?? Like..WHY bother starting this..KNOWING it is going to blow up into this kind of nonsense...and since he isn't listening to anyone...What is the POINT???

Maybe to put up to let others know that certain comments on the boards are offensive to others??? Did you take care to maybe think of that??

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Maybe to put up to let others know that certain comments on the boards are offensive to others??? Did you take care to maybe think of that??

maybe your tone and sarcasm are offensive. I think people get it in the threads. Relax friend. It is attitude like this that stirs things up too. Ever think of that?

 

[Catherineanne]

If there were a "moratorium" on Catholic/Protestant debates, then the Catholics (and most likely the Eastern Orthodox) would gladly fellowship in OBOB and TAW, and then the Protestants would have exclusive run of the joint, where they can debate their particular idioms of faith. (OSAS, Predestination vs Arminianism, etc...)

Can we have a little more remembrance that Catholic and Protestant are not necessarily mutually exclusive, and that throwing around comments about what Catholics think and what Protestants think, as if these can ever be determined, is not really helpful.

Some of us are both Catholic and Protestant, and proud of it.

And, to return to the subject of the thread, I certainly agree that disrespect to Our Lady is equivalent to disrespect to Christ, just as anyone who insults my mother insults me. Threads asking questions are often very thinly veiled attacks aimed at hurting Catholic and Orthodox feeling and at condemning their beliefs and practices out of hand, even when such beliefs and practices are clearly attested in Scripture.

Imo, if you would not ask these questions of your own pastor or minister's mother, then do not ask them of Our Lady. Imagine such a lady visiting her son's church, and shaking hands with a lot of people. And imagine some of the congregation refusing to shake hands with her, because they do not believe in worshipping idols.

Respect for our mothers, and for Our Lord's mother, is one and the same thing.

In as much as ye have done it for the least of my brothers, ye have done it unto me.

This goes for his Mother as well.

 

[Catherineanne]

Since the Reformation over 500 years of Marian devotion has contributed more to division than to unity among the various Christian denominations, if it could ever be set aside... humungous steps in ecumenism could be taken...

Goodness, what a huge sweeping brush you have there!

Shame it is sweeping nothing but poppycock.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Maybe to put up to let others know that certain comments on the boards are offensive to others??? Did you take care to maybe think of that??

Curious....


Evidently, telling a Protestant who has repeatedly said that he adores, venerates, reveres and in a sense worships Mary, who considers her Our Blessed Lady and the Mother of God and the chief of all saints, who has stated (more than once) that she is precious to him - a Catholic telling him that he doesn't respect Mary and regards her as a Jew does Jesus - that's okay, that's not offensive, that's just stating facts. BUT if a Protestant says, "I don't think you've made a compelling case to verify the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary" well - that's anticatholic, more pickin' on the poor Catholics, offensive, hurtful, condemning, painful. Come on, my full brother. Let's gain a little perspective here - and perhaps everyone needs to take a deep breath.

 

[Catherineanne]

You don't see many Catholics bashing your "Rapture" dogmas and your weird dispensationilism theorys now do you?

Been there. Got the tshirt.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.

 

[Renton405]

maybe your tone and sarcasm are offensive. I think people get it in the threads. Relax friend. It is attitude like this that stirs things up too. Ever think of that?

I stated what i stated in the OP, very kindly and nicely, that simply some posts are offensive and attack/ridicule others faiths.. The "attitude" didn't start till downward after that.. immediatly I was attacked for my statement

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't see God leaving a book where we have to "guess", or try to decipher hidden codes which one cannot easily read.

I just don't see God leaving us His Word like that.

(Revelation, exception of course.)

Easily read, maybe. Easily deciphered, absolutely not.

This is exactly what we have in Scripture.

However, it also contains clear evidence of respect for Our Lady as the mother of Our Lord.

If she were any other woman, with him the day he was born, and standing with him the day he died in agony, she would be revered, as Martha and Mary, sisters of Lazarus, are revered, as examples to Christian women.

Why is it then that not only is Our Lady not revered, but in some cases she is actually reviled? I can understand not wanting to err in this matter, but why is it not enough to preserve a graceful silence?

 

[Renton405]

Curious....


Evidently, telling a Protestant who has repeatedly said that he adores, venerates, reveres and in a sense worships Mary, who considers her Our Blessed Lady and the Mother of God and the chief of all saints, who has stated (more than once) that she is precious to him - a Catholic telling him that he doesn't respect Mary and regards her as a Jew does Jesus - that's okay, that's not offensive, that's just stating facts. BUT if a Protestant says, "I don't think you've made a compelling case to verify the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary" well - that's anticatholic, more pickin' on the poor Catholics, offensive, hurtful, condemning, painful. Come on, my full brother. Let's gain a little perspective here - and perhaps everyone needs to take a deep breath.

Josiah, a respectful question on that is fine. But its easy to see posts that are full of bias, narrowmindedness and just are plain insulting. Like the one poster said they are simply "veiled" comments that are intended to hurts others, not for actually learning on the Virgin Mary.. It has gone alot farther than you claim...And that is the reason of this post