A Sorites Paradox for Christians: Backsliding

[public hermit]

If Yahuweh the Creator Says to be Perfect, because He is Perfect (NOT the ENglish meaning of the word "perfect", but mature, all that is possible for a person)
will you willingly BELIEVE HIM (His Word) ?
If Yahuweh the Creator Says to be Holy, because your heavenly Father is holy,
are you willing to be? Willing to agree with Him that He is Perfectly Right? And willing to DO as He Says ?

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. How does that show that one can sin their salvation away?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have very low expectations for this thread because I assume it should be obvious that sinning one's salvation away is absurd.

Well, with errors as quoted above and below, this thread may mislead many people ...

Honestly, I am hoping that just reading the OP will convert every one to believing that God's grace given in Jesus Christ is sufficient. If that happens my job here is done.

It is necessary to find out in Scripture what sin is not forgiven, or it may be not only continued, but continually passed on to others as well. (and their souls lost then, if God does not intervene for them)

 

[public hermit]

Good? This is Truth. This is true of everyone - no one is "good enough" that God should care about us at all....

See, but we love only because he first loved us. Being "not good enough" doesn't abrogate God's love. Yes, we are not good enough. But that doesn't make the converse true, i.e. that being good enough is enough.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. How does that show that one can sin their salvation away?

See the Scripture that I thought you would already have been searching to know the truth. If the sin continues in a person, that is not forgiven, that is bad, right ? Thus, it is better to find out what it is (from Scripture, clearly) , instead of not finding out?

 

[public hermit]

Well, with errors as quoted above and below, this thread may mislead many people

Again, simply saying I am in error does not show anything. Moreover, how am I misleading people if they trust solely in God's grace? Are you afraid I will encourage antinomianism?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

See, but we love only because he first loved us. Being "not good enough" doesn't abrogate God's love. Yes, we are not good enough. But that doesn't make the converse true, i.e. that being good enough is enough.

And yet, multitudes claim love, even that they love God, and in HIS WORD, it describes multitudes who HAVE NO LIGHT IN THEM, no truth, yet claim "love" (deceived?) ....

If someone is condemned by Jesus' Word, even for ONE SIN, on Judgment Day, it is Perfect Judgment.

If someone FINDS OUT BEFORE THEN, so they can hopefully repent to be saved, that is better.

 

[SPF]

If we could sin away our Salvation it would mean two things. First, it would mean that we have something to boast about because we could boast that our good works were able to maintain our Salvation. This seems to contradict what Paul says when he explicitly declares that we have nothing to boast about because Salvation is based upon grace.

Second, if we could "sin away" our Salvation, that sounds to me like Christ's atoning work on the cross really isn't sufficient to forgive all my sins and that some sins, or some sins in enough quantity are more powerful than Christ's atoning work. And something about that just sounds wrong.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Again, simply saying I am in error does not show anything. Moreover, how am I misleading people if they trust solely in God's grace? Are you afraid I will encourage antinomianism?

If someone loses the opportunity, or stops seeking the truth and salvation because of things you teach or post, that is bad, right ?
Whatever or rather Whoever you say to trust.... if you still encourage disobedience, transgressions, and sinfulness, showing "lack of knowledge" for which "MY people perish" , what happens to people then ? They perish ? If they do not find out the truth and come to Jesus as He Says in Scripture.

 

[public hermit]

I'm remembering though that He washed their feet (they were already clean He explained to Peter, so that only their feet need washing) -- and He said to us to wash each others feet..... This feels like it connects. How do we wash each others feet. Is it that we forgive one another -- show mercy and grace to one another, returning anger with mildness and love?

I think I see what you're getting at, maybe. Kind of like we pray the Father forgives us as we forgive others? If we are His children then we will be merciful like him?

 

[SPF]

And yet, multitudes claim love, even that they love God, and in HIS WORD, it describes multitudes who HAVE NO LIGHT IN THEM, no truth, yet claim "love" (deceived?) ....

If someone is condemned by Jesus' Word, even for ONE SIN, on Judgment Day, it is Perfect Judgment.

If someone FINDS OUT BEFORE THEN, so they can hopefully repent to be saved, that is better.

First off, you're not speaking clearly or directly. It would be good for all reading what you post if you could do that. The OP was quite clear, it's honestly you that's not being clear.

And out of curiosity, do you believe that you no longer sin? (I have to ask because your posts aren't clear).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And something about that just sounds wrong.

Naturally it "sounds wrong".

In God's Word, As noted earlier, what "one sin" is all it takes to be condemned ? (one I was thinking of, and one another poster brought up also; there may well be more)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

First off, you're not speaking clearly or directly. It would be good for all reading what you post if you could do that. The OP was quite clear, it's honestly you that's not being clear.

And out of curiosity, do you believe that you no longer sin? (I have to ask because your posts aren't clear).

Thankfully, for those who don't promote false teachings, it is clear, OR, if they look in Scripture for the Truth to find it, trusting the heavenly Father, they find it, and it then is crystal clear. Thus, I attempt to get people to LOOK TO YAHUWEH, FIND IN SCRIPTURE, for the TRUTH, and NOT to teachings or doctrines or whatever else there is.....

 

[public hermit]

if you still encourage disobedience

This I see as a legitimate complaint. And I understand why you would make it. To be clear, I am not encouraging disobedience. Let's go ahead and put that on the table. I am encouraging others to trust in Christ. So, what does that mean?

What does it mean to trust in Christ? It certainly means more than mere belief. It also means following him, i.e. trusting him enough to live as he taught (which by grace he will help us do). So, no. I am not encouraging disobedience.

This is why this discussion is good. We need to air out the confusion.

 

[SPF]

Thankfully, for those who don't promote false teachings, it is clear, OR, if they look in Scripture for the Truth to find it, trusting the heavenly Father, they find it, and it then is crystal clear. Thus, I attempt to get people to LOOK TO YAHUWEH, FIND IN SCRIPTURE, for the TRUTH, and NOT to teachings or doctrines or whatever else there is.....

Or, since you believe you have the answer and the right interpretation, and thus the right doctrine - you could... speak clearly.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Or, since you believe you have the answer and the right interpretation, and thus the right doctrine - you could... speak clearly.

No.

 

[eleos1954]

In philosophy, a "Sorites Paradox" is a paradox concerning vagueness. Consider a heap of sand. How many grains of sand does it take to make a "heap?" Surely, one grain will not do. Two grains hardly constitutes a heap. What about three, or four, or five? In other words, the term "heap" is vague. It's difficult (impossible?) to demarcate exactly how many grains of sand make a heap. One can do something similar with baldness. How many hairs must I lose before you would consider me bald? One, two, three...three hundred?

Christians may also be confronted with problems of vagueness. For example, there are some Christians who say that salvation is contingent not only on God's grace, but also on not sinning. In other words, it is possible to sin away one's salvation. But, how many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation? Obviously, if someone is going around murdering and stealing and being a consummate transgressor, then sinfulness and not grace reigns in the life of that person. And likewise, if someone rarely sins, they should be confident they have not sinned away their salvation. The rest of us probably live somewhere in-between, somewhere in the vagueness.

So, for those who believe salvation can be sinned away (and of course anybody else), I present a sorites paradox for Christians: "The Backslider's Paradox." How many sins does it take to sin away one's salvation?

(If you can't quantify over backsliding (if you can't give a number), then feel free to discuss the process of backsliding. At what point is one considered a backslider? And, if you trust wholly upon God's grace and not your own lack of sinfulness, then you may discuss that also.)

Sorites Paradox (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

If we are convicted by the Holy Spirit of a sin, then we are made mindful of it and go to God and ask for forgiveness, receive it and ask Him to help us turn away from it (not continue in it) and overcome it.

Really it's personal between you and God and He helps us individually ... if we keep going to Christ He is willing to help us overcome it.

How many times? There isn't a fixed number.

There is, really, only one person God cannot forgive, and that is the person who persistently refuses to come to Jesus for forgiveness.

The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not lie in any sudden word or deed; it is the firm, determined resistance of truth and evidence.No one need look upon the sin against the Holy Spirit as something mysterious and indefinable.

The sin against the Holy Spirit is the sin of persistent refusal to respond to the invitation to repent.

That is, our hearts become hardened. It becomes easier for us to sin and/or don't care that we do sin.

Persistent - How long is that? The Lord decides.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Consider a heap of sand. How many grains of sand does it take to make a "heap?"

God uses the Palm of His Hand to measure. With God there is exact precision. He fills His hand to overflowing so that the exact number is held in His hand. For us the math is to difficult, but for God nothing is to difficult. Only He does not tell us how many grains of sand or molecules of water He can fit in His hand. Women use this for a recipe: a pinch of this and a dash of that. In the Bible a cubit is the distance from the elbow to the tip of your fingers. A foot is the size of a foot. Usually they would use the King because he was usually a big person. David of course was an exception to his because he was small, even if he was mighty and fierce.

 

[public hermit]

If we are convicted by the Holy Spirit of a sin, then we are made mindful of it and go to God and ask for forgiveness, receive it and ask Him to help us turn away from it (not continue in it) and overcome it.

Really it's personal between you and God and He helps us individually ... if we keep going to Christ He is willing to help us overcome it.

How many times? There isn't a fixed number.

There is, really, only one person God cannot forgive, and that is the person who persistently refuses to come to Jesus for forgiveness.

The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit does not lie in any sudden word or deed; it is the firm, determined resistance of truth and evidence.No one need look upon the sin against the Holy Spirit as something mysterious and indefinable.

The sin against the Holy Spirit is the sin of persistent refusal to respond to the invitation to repent.

That is, our hearts become hardened. It becomes easier for us to sin and/or don't care that we do sin.

Persistent - How long is that? The Lord decides.

Thank you for this reply. I am assuming you are referring to a Christian here, is that right?

I am inclined to wonder if there is anyone who dies having confessed all sin.

Also, is the person who refuses to come to Christ for forgiveness a Christian? Isn't coming to Christ for forgiveness a prerequisite of all Christians? Help me understand a little better what you are saying.

 

[joshua 1 9]

[QUOTE="Halbhh, post: 74342854, member: 375234"[/QUOTE]We are washed & cleansed, healed & delivered in the river of life and we are to go in over our head. First our feet and we go in deeper up to our waist then we go all the way in until we are covered by the water that represents the Holy Spirit of God. This is the river that flows from the Throne of God.

 

[public hermit]

If someone loses the opportunity, or stops seeking the truth and salvation because of things you teach or post, that is bad, right ?

With all due respect, this is a backhanded way to argue. I could turn the tables. I rejected Christianity very early on precisely because of the belief you hold. I just couldn't be good enough, so why try. It wasn't until I came to know God's love and grace in Jesus Christ that I came to faith. It wasn't because I was finally good enough.