A small trinity question

Woots · Jan 16, 2006

I justed wanted someone to explain using the trinity concept the following:

Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

DEUTERONOMY 32: 39 See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me.

Isaiah 44: 6 This is what the Lord says, Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45: 5 I am the Lord, there is no other; apart from me there is no God.

CocaCola · Jan 16, 2006

One God can have 3 basic attributes.

Woots · Jan 16, 2006

u mean that the 3 attributes are actually one entity??
if that is true then
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
if the 3 are the same....... then jesus shouldnt have said our god...... since he is god..right?????

CocaCola · Jan 16, 2006

Woots said:
u mean that the 3 attributes are actually one entity??
if that is true then
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
if the 3 are the same....... then jesus shouldnt have said our god...... since he is god..right?????

Yes, i believe same. Jesus is not God but a Prophet or someone like Saint.
I was just defending Trinity, not whole of Christian concept.

Woots · Jan 16, 2006

lol....cocacola im sorry but im not really familiar with ur religion maybe u could tell me more about it

AdonaiShalom · Jan 16, 2006

Trinity is a curly one. We believe that God has revealed himself in three ways - the Father (creator) Son (redeemer) and Holy Spirit (sustainer and sanctifyer). God came to earth as Jesus, and when he Ascended the Holy Spirit was left as God's permanent presence on Earth.
Where it gets curly is in that we believe that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, fully divine yet fully human. Thus he was God, but in a way that is more intimately close to us than God ever has been before. Thats why he still prayed. It also set us an example.
I get the feeling that I may have created more questions than I have answered...I should warn you, I'm no expert.

Woots · Jan 16, 2006

its ok AdonaiShalom...yet this doesnt answer my question (i mean why did jesus say our god if he is god???):

Woots said:
u mean that the 3 attributes are actually one entity??
if that is true then
Mark 12: 29 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
if the 3 are the same....... then jesus shouldnt have said our god...... since he is god..right?????

IceJad · Jan 16, 2006

CocaCola said:
Yes, i believe same. Jesus is not God but a Prophet or someone like Saint.
I was just defending Trinity, not whole of Christian concept.

I'm just confused. You say Jesus is a prophet. The wierd thing is you also say to defend trinity. If you defend trinity God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit then the first statement is wrong.

Trinity means 3 but of the same. Since Jesus according to you is a prophet then He cannot form trinity. Can you explain more.

saladin1970 · Jan 16, 2006

AdonaiShalom said:
Trinity is a curly one. We believe that God has revealed himself in three ways - the Father (creator) Son (redeemer) and Holy Spirit (sustainer and sanctifyer). God came to earth as Jesus, and when he Ascended the Holy Spirit was left as God's permanent presence on Earth.
Where it gets curly is in that we believe that Jesus was both fully God and fully man, fully divine yet fully human. Thus he was God, but in a way that is more intimately close to us than God ever has been before. Thats why he still prayed. It also set us an example.
I get the feeling that I may have created more questions than I have answered...I should warn you, I'm no expert.

if god is infinite then how can he be divisible, since devision requires boundaries

CocaCola · Jan 16, 2006

IceJad said:
I'm just confused. You say Jesus is a prophet. The wierd thing is you also say to defend trinity. If you defend trinity God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit then the first statement is wrong.

Trinity means 3 but of the same. Since Jesus according to you is a prophet then He cannot form trinity. Can you explain more.

God the father, Protector - Vishnu
God the Holy spirit, Jiva (soul), Destroyer of Maya - Shiv
the son, father of humans, creator - Brahma

CocaCola · Jan 16, 2006

Woots said:
lol....cocacola im sorry but im not really familiar with ur religion maybe u could tell me more about it

I am not a Hindu yet but i was defending Hindu trinity.

IceJad · Jan 16, 2006

Woots said:
its ok AdonaiShalom...yet this doesnt answer my question (i mean why did jesus say our god if he is god???):

Actually AdonaiShalom just answered you. Jesus is God but yet human. He is showing that although being God, He came as man to the world. So when He addresses Himself He call my God.

When God decided that the salvation of man is at hand He sent Himself as sacrifice for sin. He know well if He came with full glory mankind will die therefore He empty His glory and authority before decending. Being empty of His fully glory it is appropriate to called His other self God.

It is hard to understand but it is all that I can explain to you. You'll need a theologian if you needed deeper understanding

AdonaiShalom · Jan 16, 2006

saladin1970 said:
if god is infinite then how can he be divisible, since devision requires boundaries

God isn't bound by his own infinite nature - He can do whatever he likes! Just because he was on Earth in the person of Jesus doesn't mean he ceased to be infinite and transcendant - he just took that form for our salvation. And he wasn't limited to that.

saladin1970 · Jan 16, 2006

but if was in human form, at that point he was bounded, and hence no longer infinite.
Form in itself is a paradox with infinitiy.

AdonaiShalom · Jan 16, 2006

Not if he wasn't limited to that form. If you take it that God came to Earth as Jesus and for 33 years he was limited to that body, and only saw what was going on through the human eyes of Christ, then yeah I would agree that that wouldn't be correct. But that God is infinite means that he can be anywhere and everywhere (or nowhere) at once. So he was uniquely present in the person of Jesus, but on another level he maintained his trascendence.

arunma · Jan 16, 2006

Woots, the reason those verses exist is so that Christians will retain the doctrine of monotheism. A lot of misunderstanding can be dismissed when we understand that God is not a person. There are three Persons of the Trinity. The three Persons are not three ways in which God manifests himself (this would be the heresy of Modalism). The three Persons of the Trinity are distinct in office, but constitute all that is God.

Some people like to use the analogy of ice, water, and steam, which are the three phases of water. Saint Patrick preferred to explain the Trinity using a three leaf clover. These analogies can help one understand the mystery of the Trinity so long as they aren't pushed too far. After all, almost every analogy has its limits.

CocaCola said:
God the father, Protector - Vishnu
God the Holy spirit, Jiva (soul), Destroyer of Maya - Shiv
the son, father of humans, creator - Brahma

I'm sorry, but the Christian doctrine of the Trinity has no relation to polytheistic religions such as Hinduism.

Balbatish · Jan 16, 2006

AdonaiShalom said:
Just because he was on Earth in the person of Jesus doesn't mean he ceased to be infinite and transcendant - he just took that form for our salvation. And he wasn't limited to that.

This immedtiatly becomes false, if Jesus had to be swaddeled by his mother, taught how to speak, learn to walk, etc, etc.

I have yet to see a clear and lucid explanation about how a being can be 100% perfect and omnipresent while being 100% human and finite.

saladin1970 · Jan 16, 2006

AdonaiShalom said:
Not if he wasn't limited to that form. If you take it that God came to Earth as Jesus and for 33 years he was limited to that body, and only saw what was going on through the human eyes of Christ, then yeah I would agree that that wouldn't be correct. But that God is infinite means that he can be anywhere and everywhere (or nowhere) at once. So he was uniquely present in the person of Jesus, but on another level he maintained his trascendence.

ok, so let me try and understand what you are saying.

you are saying that is infinite (i.e unbounded). Now if he is split into three parts of the ghost, father and son, then he is still unbounded, and if the son is in the bounded human form, then the overall god is still infinite with just a section bounded?

which raises another question. Is jesus of the same substance as the father, in which case if jesus is bounded in human form , then that substance must also be bouded in the father form

CocaCola · Jan 16, 2006

arunma said:
I'm sorry, but the Christian doctrine of the Trinity has no relation to polytheistic religions such as Hinduism.

I'm sorry, but arunma's sorry can't force others to close there eyes. Arunma's words can't make hinduism polytheistic. Who cares about extremists and fundamentalist these days?

Just because of Hinduism's defination of trinity , i respect and truely understand trinity now. Christian trinity was one of the many reasons why i left christians logicless logics.

AlexandraB · Jan 16, 2006

I tell you having practised catholicism for over 40 years, the Trinity used to do my head in as well...

so one day, during one of my walk-about-the-school-as-visiting-Governor duties, I met up with the parish priest, and the deacon... both really very nice people.... and I asked them exactly that...
"Explain the Holy trinity to me", .... but I still didn't get it all... so I asked further..
"Yes, but what's with this Holy Ghost dude?" (Exactly as I put it!)
They laughed, and both answered (I promise you, this is what they said....)
"Oh, She is the Love that flows in between... between God and the Son, between God and His Children,, and between Christ and the World...."

She.
She?!?

Yep.

She.

Thank you.
I've finished now.

A small trinity question

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