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A slightly different angle....
- Thread starter Lord_Barthok_Soc
- Start date
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BigBadWlf
Guest
I believe that when it is announced that an entire minority are not and cannot be Christians it already is ugly
One a side note Gwen, you really have come a long way!
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You're missing the point entirely. The debate isn't on whether the bible is God's Word or not, it's on whether the bible says homosexuality is wrong or not. And as I stated in my initial post, I have seen no convincing and conclusive argument from either side based only upon the verses purported to condemn homosexuality.
I'm not suggesting we throw the bible out the window. Not in the least. What I am suggesting is that people try to expand their horizons and look at more than just the three or four vague references to homosexuality when they consider their stance on this debate.
Please, please please please please do not start this here. Go instead to one of the other derailed threads that have already become a flame war hot enough to melt my screen. Please. I implore you not to do this.
Here's the kicker: I have had in the past, as recently as today even, church elders, Christian teachers, older upstanding Christians, little old ladies etc etc come up to me. They have taken my hand, looked me in the eyes and said things along the lines of "It's really encouraging to see the Lord working so amazingly in a young man's life!" or "You keep with the Lord, just as you are, He shall lead you to great things." or "Wow thanks! The Spirit really worked through you there, I was blessed!" or "The Lord has really worked a marvellous transformation in you!" Not just people from the local churches (many of which are by no stretch of the imagination particularly liberal-minded), and not just in a church setting.
So, would their opinions suddenly change if I just happened to mention that I'm gay? Maybe, in one or two cases.
That being the case or not, does the fact that I am gay automatically, magically strip me of God's love and His ability to use me? Pffft. That's not what He's telling me.
I am struggling with the dregs of depression. I am no longer struggling with my sexuality. I am frequently struggling with the attitudes of both homosexuals and heterosexuals on the matter, in particular from the "Christian"/religious standpoints.
Not solely, but it was a large part of it, yes. And when things were at their worst, I did not recognise the depression. It is hindsight that helped me see clearly what was going through my head. Now when I enter a "down" period, I can often notice it. Which can occasionally make it harder when I can't do anything about it.
I like plenty of girls. I have very close female friends, as well as extremely close male friends (all heterosexual). But all of these are just friends; none of them could become a romantic relationship. Trying leads to a lot of tears. It's very, very tempting to try over and over again; the peer pressure is tremendous. And I don't have just my own life to look at to see this; many people have similar experiences.
Perhaps this will put things slightly more into perspective on this matter: One of my two best friends is a girl a year older than myself. I have known her for over 7 years and we have always been close.
Last year I went to visit her and her boyfriend, at her bf's uni. Shock #1. The guy could have been my twin. It was creepy how similar we are.
A few months later I went to visit just my friend at her flat/uni, 2 hrs away from her bf. The distance between them was taking a small toll on their relationship due to a couple of other stress factors at the time. Shock #2: it was later revealed that I was one of those factors.
This visit, we got a bottle of Irish Meadow and sat drinking it, chatting and catching up. Shock #3: my friend started hitting on me, very physically, very obviously (but nothing explicit...mostly getting ridiculously cuddly/snuggly and dreamy-eyed). I was understandably uncomfortable; she was in a relationship, she was slightly drunk, I had never even considered her for the briefest moment in a sexual manner, and to top it off I was planning to 'come out' to her that night!
I eventually did tell her that I am gay. She was in tears by that time, it took me so long to spit it out. We both felt terrible and embarrassed for our respective reasons. After "Oh....wow....wow...." her first comprehensible words to me were "That.....explains so much...."
Shock #4: throughout our friendship, she had wondered why I hadn't asked her out. Agonised over what could be wrong with her that I didn't like her. Other people who met us had thought we were dating. Quite honestly, in 7 years the notion had never, ever crossed my mind.
I wonder why? Possibly the same reason I'm not attracted to any other female.
As I said, I generally detest labels. However, there is a difference between identifying and accepting a part of yourself, and labelling yourself.
God can do anything. The future is known to Him, not to us. I have made the choice to follow a path God has laid out before me. It so happens that this path brings the likelihood of my meeting a partner within the next 2 or 3 years down to almost nil. It could happen, it could not. That's down to God and His plans, just as it would be if I fancied girls. I'm not going to ditch everything and go running after the dream of a partner, no matter how much I want to.
If you feel I'm worth quoting, go ahead. I'm honoured.
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Maranatha27
Senior Member
Hi buddy,
I want to say as a fellow christian, I feel bad. When you became born agian as you say, which I believe, I feel you have a major issue. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, and will continually quence the Spirit that is in you. I think if you come to the conclusion that this is acceptable as you apparently have, You rewards will suffer at the bema seat (hay wood and stubble). There are a lot of things that are offensive in the Word of God, but its the Word of God. Dont let your carnal mind over ride the precious pages of scripture.
I want to say as a fellow christian, I feel bad. When you became born agian as you say, which I believe, I feel you have a major issue. I believe that homosexuality is a sin, and will continually quence the Spirit that is in you. I think if you come to the conclusion that this is acceptable as you apparently have, You rewards will suffer at the bema seat (hay wood and stubble). There are a lot of things that are offensive in the Word of God, but its the Word of God. Dont let your carnal mind over ride the precious pages of scripture.
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How is the Spirit being quenched within me?
When have I ever mentioned finding something offensive in the Word of God? If you read again what I wrote, it isn't carnal desires that lead me to my conclusion, but God.
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I think that being gay is a gift from God. Hey, being alive is a gift from God, and so is being how God made us.
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But it's not my friend, it's not.
Why has this become so political? This is no worse then the sin of gluttony, like a poster mentioned above.
Gluttony is a sin, if you remain in that sin without remorse, the love of Hashem is not in you.
A sin is transgression from G-d's Law and in G-d's Law it says if a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.
If you lay with someone of the same gender, you have broken G-d's Law; but because of Yeshua dying on the cross, if you repent and believe, you will live forever in His Kingdom.
G-d truly says; "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
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So stop paraphrasing scripture as you view, making improper parallels and using awful puns, and address something I've said already. This is starting to sound like a scratched record.But it's not my friend, it's not.
Why has this become so political? This is no worse then the sin of gluttony, like a poster mentioned above.
Gluttony is a sin, if you remain in that sin without remorse, the love of Hashem is not in you.
A sin is transgression from G-d's Law and in G-d's Law it says if a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.
If you lay with someone of the same gender, you have broken G-d's Law; but because of Yeshua dying on the cross, if you repent and believe, you will live forever in His Kingdom.
G-d truly says; "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
And "Straight is the gate...which leadeth unto life"? Geeez...I don't know if that was intentional (but seeing as gates aren't usually described as 'straight', I'm assuming it was) but puh-leease. That's not paraphrasing, that's deliberately misquoting for your own purposes.
Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow Gate
13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[a] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.
14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.
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Not a matter of perspective; but a matter of acknowleding G-d's Law.
You have said many things, what is it that you want me to address?
You're paranoia is not healthy, brother.
strait [noun]
Archaic. a narrow passage or area.
narrow: Strait is the gate.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 7:13-14 ;&version=9
Matthew 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
Wow! I read the OP and want to say things that don't belong, and yet I don't know how to say what is in my heart without saying some of them. Please bare with me.
First let me say, that I do believe that you have been given a gift by God. Not necessarily what you think, but a gift none the less. Most people who "believe" in God, expect Him to fix all their problems (not talking about sexuality at all here) but that isn't how God works. Some people I have become convinced over time, are called by God for a very difficult yet important task of challenging the church. Yes, you heard right, some of us all called to challenge the church.
Now, some things I didn't want to get into but don't see a way around in order to make my point. I have studied the bible some on this topic and find something interesting that few people grasp. Sin is always a choice. Sin is not who we are but what we do with who we are and what we desire. As homosexuality is described, it is not a choice, however, acting on that is a choice. Consider the issue of lust. Looking at someone and saying "nice" isn't a sin, but lusting after them is. Sin is not an emotion, it can be an acting on an emotion. That said, it would seem that one could be homosexual and still not sin sexually.
But how does that address challenge? People who are different are usually judged by the church. Our own family lives in poverty and we have endured much because of it. We have been accused of sinning thus bringing this judgment upon us, choosing to live this way, choosing to live in sin, and on and on it goes. However, in Africa (hubby grew up there and we have good friends there as well) poverty is common place and is not judged the same as it is here. Over time I have come to the understanding that our poverty is a challenge to the church to see people through the eyes of God not man, just as you spoke of in the OP. Just as looking at someone and saying, "nice" is not a sin of lust, looking at someone of the same sex and saying "nice" can't be a sin either. What a great challenge to the church you have set forth. You dear friend are blessed.
One word of caution however, those who are called to challenge, are a challenge to themselves as well. It would seem that one of your challenges is to not lump everyone in the same category. There are some who fit and some who don't, don't assume that everyone who calls homosexuality a sin is judging homosexuals. Just a caution, not an accusation.
May you find strength as you seek God's will for you. May you know His safety as you face the world who seeks to destroy. May you know peace as you challenge the church to look through the eyes of Christ and not the worlds eyes.
First let me say, that I do believe that you have been given a gift by God. Not necessarily what you think, but a gift none the less. Most people who "believe" in God, expect Him to fix all their problems (not talking about sexuality at all here) but that isn't how God works. Some people I have become convinced over time, are called by God for a very difficult yet important task of challenging the church. Yes, you heard right, some of us all called to challenge the church.
Now, some things I didn't want to get into but don't see a way around in order to make my point. I have studied the bible some on this topic and find something interesting that few people grasp. Sin is always a choice. Sin is not who we are but what we do with who we are and what we desire. As homosexuality is described, it is not a choice, however, acting on that is a choice. Consider the issue of lust. Looking at someone and saying "nice" isn't a sin, but lusting after them is. Sin is not an emotion, it can be an acting on an emotion. That said, it would seem that one could be homosexual and still not sin sexually.
But how does that address challenge? People who are different are usually judged by the church. Our own family lives in poverty and we have endured much because of it. We have been accused of sinning thus bringing this judgment upon us, choosing to live this way, choosing to live in sin, and on and on it goes. However, in Africa (hubby grew up there and we have good friends there as well) poverty is common place and is not judged the same as it is here. Over time I have come to the understanding that our poverty is a challenge to the church to see people through the eyes of God not man, just as you spoke of in the OP. Just as looking at someone and saying, "nice" is not a sin of lust, looking at someone of the same sex and saying "nice" can't be a sin either. What a great challenge to the church you have set forth. You dear friend are blessed.
One word of caution however, those who are called to challenge, are a challenge to themselves as well. It would seem that one of your challenges is to not lump everyone in the same category. There are some who fit and some who don't, don't assume that everyone who calls homosexuality a sin is judging homosexuals. Just a caution, not an accusation.
May you find strength as you seek God's will for you. May you know His safety as you face the world who seeks to destroy. May you know peace as you challenge the church to look through the eyes of Christ and not the worlds eyes.
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Pick one. But please don't just fall back on the same old argument that you believe "the Word of God condemns it", because it is not an effective argument and has already been addressed in many other threads.
My apologies. It was rather harsh of me.
I didn't recognise the word, I thought it was a typo. I'm not in the habit of using archaic English. Too much of it has a different meaning nowadays.
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Okay, well, do you think having intercourse with someone of the same gender is sin?
No worries, just know that I'm not your adversary, but your brother.
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razzelflabben: thank you for your words and cautions. I agree, it can be tempting at times to feel like the whole world is united against you. I know that's not true, thanks for the reminder.
One thing I would like to point out: a lot of the time, Paul seems to think any sexual desire is wrong. He would have loved it if everyone were asexual. But he concedes that some people need a partner, and should therefore seek a monogamous relationship.
(Not talking directly to razzelflabben here: ) How double-valued is it, then, to say that it's okay for heterosexuals to have a partner to sate their desires, and not homosexuals?
I resent it when people say things like "it's okay to be homosexual as long as you never enter into a relationship". Just as not all heterosexuals are called to either singleness or marriage, not all homosexuals are called to singleness and it is cruel to try and impose that on people.
One thing I would like to point out: a lot of the time, Paul seems to think any sexual desire is wrong. He would have loved it if everyone were asexual. But he concedes that some people need a partner, and should therefore seek a monogamous relationship.
(Not talking directly to razzelflabben here: ) How double-valued is it, then, to say that it's okay for heterosexuals to have a partner to sate their desires, and not homosexuals?
I resent it when people say things like "it's okay to be homosexual as long as you never enter into a relationship". Just as not all heterosexuals are called to either singleness or marriage, not all homosexuals are called to singleness and it is cruel to try and impose that on people.
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I think being gay is not a sin at all, nor is loving a spouse who happens to be of the same sex.But it's not my friend, it's not.
Why has this become so political? This is no worse then the sin of gluttony, like a poster mentioned above.
Gluttony is a sin, if you remain in that sin without remorse, the love of Hashem is not in you.
A sin is transgression from G-d's Law and in G-d's Law it says if a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.
If you lay with someone of the same gender, you have broken G-d's Law; but because of Yeshua dying on the cross, if you repent and believe, you will live forever in His Kingdom.
G-d truly says; "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
I do not see loving a same-sex spouse as any reason why someone would not be saved.
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No, having intercourse with someone of the same sex is not a sin, if the couple is in a committed spousal relationship.
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Sin = transgression of G-d's Law.
Leviticus 18
Because the Bible says that if you remain in sin you're not saved.
Doesn't change G-d's Law.
Leviticus 18:22
(KJV)
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
(NJKV)
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."
(NLV)
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin."
(NIV)
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"
(NASB)
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
(HNV)
"You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestible"
But, if you want to keep on lying to yourself, you're free to do so.
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There are different ways to interpret the passage in Leviticus that you quote. Plus, few Christians accept the statement, also in Leviticus, that men who lie with another man deserve to be put to death. There is much in Leviticus, and in the Old Testament generally, that most Christians today either reject or ignore.
The fact that there are different perspectives on God's law means that different people have different ideas about what God's law is and what it means. You have your perspective on homosexuality and God's law, and that's certainly up to you to choose your perspective. Others have a different perspective.
I as a gay person have no worries about my own salvation. I don't agree with you about God's law.
The Bible says nothing at all about same-sex marriage. It is entirely silent. Those who argue that God condemns same-sex marriage read that into the silence of the Bible. Jesus also said nothing about either same-sex marriage or same-sex intimacy.
I am not "lying" to myself. I just see things differently from you. Also, the passages about men lying with men do not apply personally to me, as I am a woman.
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