A simple question

[Keachian]

The C&MA is much closer to Presbyterian church government with its rule by a plurality of elders and functional deacons.

The Confessional Baptist also has the elements of plurality of elders and functional deacons, and in some cases this is even present in the General Baptists, what you mean is that the C&MA has well-defined and structured church polity above the Local Church and decisions flow both up and down above the Church level.

 

[OzSpen]

The Vulgate is based off the majority text so no problem there. The reformers Bibles both Geneva and KJV were all majority texts.

I would not be as confident as you are regarding the KJV and the Majority Text. We know that the Greek text behind the KJV NT is Erasmus' Textus Receptus (TR).

A textual critic, who dedicated much of his academic life to this field, the late Bruce Metzger, wrote:

Since Erasmus could not find a manuscript which contained the entire Greek Testament, he utilized several for various parts of the New Testament. For most of the text he relied on two rather inferior manuscripts from a monastic library at Basle, one of the Gospels … and one of the Acts and Epistles, both dating from about the twelfth century. Erasmus compared them with two or three others of the same books and entered occasional corrections for the printer in the margins or between the lines of the Greek script. For the Book of Revelation he had but one manuscript, dating from the twelfth century, which he had borrowed from his friend Reuchlin. Unfortunately, this manuscript lacked the final leaf, which had contained the last six verses of the book. For these verses, as well as a few other passages throughout the book where the Greek text of the Apocalypse and the adjoining Greek commentary with which the manuscript was supplied are so mixed up as to be almost indistinguishable, Erasmus depended upon the Latin Vulgate, translating this text into Greek. As would be expected from such a procedure, here and there in Erasmus’ self-made Greek text are readings which have never been found in any known Greek manuscript-but which are still perpetuated today in printings of the so-called Textus Receptus of the Greek New Testament.

Even in other parts of the New Testament Erasmus occasionally introduced into his Greek text material taken from the Latin Vulgate. Thus in Acts ix. 6, the question which Paul asks at the time of his conversion on the Damascus road, ‘And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?’, was frankly interpolated by Erasmus from the Latin Vulgate. This addition, which is found in no Greek manuscript at this passage (though it appears in the parallel account of Acts xxii. 10), became part of the Textus Receptus, from which the King James version was made in 1611 (Metzger 1992:99-100).

In Christ,
Oz

Works consulted
Metzger, B. M. 1992. The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption,and Restoration (3rd ed). New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press.

 

[OzSpen]

The Confessional Baptist also has the elements of plurality of elders and functional deacons, and in some cases this is even present in the General Baptists, what you mean is that the C&MA has well-defined and structured church polity above the Local Church and decisions flow both up and down above the Church level.

The C&MA does not have a bishopric structure but each local church is ruled by a plurality of elders. Yes, there is a structure at the denominational level to deal with heretical teaching in a local church.

Oz

 

[Keachian]

The C&MA does not have a bishopric structure but each local church is ruled by a plurality of elders. Yes, there is a structure at the denominational level to deal with heretical teaching in a local church.

Oz

It's not just a denominational level thing, it is nearly full blown Presbyterian polity (which is different to Episcopal) there are districts and conference before getting to the denominational level.

 

[OzSpen]

Largely my questioning stems from accepting a criticism of Confessional Baptists that could be levelled at you (I am assuming that one of the reasons you bear a Baptist icon is because you are a credobaptist, issues of congregational ecclesiology aside [which also flows from 1689 Federalism]) If you claim that a Particular Baptist is not Reformed because they don't hold to paedobaptism, I can just as easily claim that you as a General Baptist are not Reformed for the same reason as the Remonstrants and even Jacobus himself were just as adamant against the Anabaptists as the Dutch Reformed Church.

Where have I claimed that a Particular Baptist is not Reformed because they are against paedobaptism?

Jacobus Arminius was Dutch Reformed to his dying day. However, his followers, the Remonstrants, were ousted at the Synod of Dort.

 

[OzSpen]

It's not just a denominational level thing, it is nearly full blown Presbyterian polity (which is different to Episcopal) there are districts and conference before getting to the denominational level.

The C&MA has districts, but is not large enough in Australia to have conferences. It is fundamentally following Presbyterian polity.

Oz

 

[Keachian]

Why did you provide this information without a link to the specific church that produced it?

Have you read this recent article of November 16, 2013, 'Why Calvinistic Southern Baptists are Not Reformed'?

Oz

This is where you basically said that Particular Baptists are not Reformed because they do not accept paedobaptism. And the article also outs your claim here that you are "just as Reformed as Arminius"

I also have some follow up questions about your Reformed theology; what is your view of the way in which God interacts with his people? (The two most common are Dispensational and Covenantal) What is your end times view? What place do non-believers have in the Church (whether invisible or visible)? What sort of role should confessional statements of faith play in the life of the Church?

You are right that all too often people see Reformed as something that merely means "holding a Calvinistic soteriology." and I applaud you for pointing this out, but I disagree with you that you can claim the title of Reformed based upon what I understand of your current theological position.

 

[OzSpen]

This is where you basically said that Particular Baptists are not Reformed because they do not accept paedobaptism. And the article also outs your claim here that you are "just as Reformed as Arminius"

I also have some follow up questions about your Reformed theology; what is your view of the way in which God interacts with his people? (The two most common are Dispensational and Covenantal) What is your end times view? What place do non-believers have in the Church (whether invisible or visible)? What sort of role should confessional statements of faith play in the life of the Church?

You are right that all too often people see Reformed as something that merely means "holding a Calvinistic soteriology." and I applaud you for pointing this out, but I disagree with you that you can claim the title of Reformed based upon what I understand of your current theological position.

I have gone back over the material that you linked to, but I can find nothing there that I stated that particular Baptists are not Reformed. My view is that it would be more specific to say that particular Baptists are Calvinistic.

When I say that I'm a Reformed Arminian, that is synonymous terminology with the essence of Classical Arminianism promoted by Arminius. However, that does not mean that in all points I agree with Arminius. For example, I am not a paedobaptist.

As to your other questions about my theological views, I don't think that it is suitable to include discussion of these matters under the topic of this thread. Why don't you start some more threads in the Baptist directory with themes such as:

• Baptists & God's people (this would encourage discussion of dispensationalism & covenantalism);
• What are the most common Baptist views of eschatology?
• Do non-believers have a place in Baptist churches?
• Is there a place for a Baptist confession of faith in churches?

In Christ,
Oz

 

[Keachian]

I think you are using double standards and redefinition/acontextualization of words in order to claim a title and deny to others the same title when largely they are more in line with what that title means.

Reformed Arminian is an Oxymoron to put it bluntly, a dispensationalist Reformed Arminian is rank nonsense and a Dispensationalist Reformed Armenian Credobaptist Presbyterian is so mind-boggling its a wonder that you even exist.

 

[OzSpen]

I think you are using double standards and redefinition/acontextualization of words in order to claim a title and deny to others the same title when largely they are more in line with what that title means.

Reformed Arminian is an Oxymoron to put it bluntly, a dispensationalist Reformed Arminian is rank nonsense and a Dispensationalist Reformed Armenian Credobaptist Presbyterian is so mind-boggling its a wonder that you even exist.

Why are you trying to invent my theology? You created a straw man fallacy about my theological views. I thought you were serious about wanting to know what I believe. But you aren't when you come up with this kind of straw man invention and imposition on me.

Bye,

 

[SeventhValley]

I think you are using double standards and redefinition/acontextualization of words in order to claim a title and deny to others the same title when largely they are more in line with what that title means.

Reformed Arminian is an Oxymoron to put it bluntly, a dispensationalist Reformed Arminian is rank nonsense and a Dispensationalist Reformed Armenian Credobaptist Presbyterian is so mind-boggling its a wonder that you even exist.

Reformed Arminian is just a classical Arminian instead of a Wesleyan one. It is a proper use of reformed since classical Arminianism is a Protestant Reformation 5 Solas position.

 

[SeventhValley]

Also other than a loose federation of churches no Baptist church needs to go a national level for anything. We should just be a federation of house churches or community churches who answer to no one but the Bible and the Trinity.
If you need Bishops or national level elders younger as well be Lutheran or Catholic.

 

[OzSpen]

Reformed Arminian is just a classical Arminian instead of a Wesleyan one. It is a proper use of reformed since classical Arminianism is a Protestant Reformation 5 Solas position.

Well said, and so briefly.

Oz