A simple question

[gluadys]

Actually, it was you who told Vossler what he was doing. He was be rather obscure in his post, or so it seems. He allowed God's Word to speak for him about what he feels. That is my deduction of what he posted.

That's the problem with proof-texting. If the poster just puts up a text you have to guess at the mental processes that went into choosing the text. I have no idea why Vossler chose those texts. The only thing I saw that seemed to be a common thread was the term "worldly" which was also taken out of context. Secular knowledge is not necessarily worldly.

You have stated your belief in evolution is Christian knowledge,

I have never stated this. Evolution is scientific knowledge.

 

[gluadys]

As for the 2 Timothy 3:6 reference; it was by no means intended to offend. It was presented as something we all need to keep in mind. If one looks at the text you will see Paul is speaking of the last days and how we’re always learning but never coming to the full knowledge of the truth. It goes on to say in verses 8 & 9



“…so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all…”



This is where I see much of the discussion concerning evolution.

Indeed, so do I. Keep in mind that evolution is truth. So opposing it is folly indeed and that folly is made apparent in many of these threads.

I oppose equating Christianity with this folly.

 

[GenemZ]

You should at least study the TE position so that you know what you are talking about. I do not indicate that God lies. I have never said that God makes up myths----creating myths is a human activity. And the truth is easy to know once you remove the blinkers and are prepared to follow the lead of the evidence. So God has shown us how he created and your assertion that God has not is groundless.

God does not mislead. Men do. And... women.

The principle you fail to understand, is that if the Word of God disagrees with what we see as being the Truth, that it is not the Word of God that needs to be modified to make things right. No matter how impossible it may seem to us.

God gave us the Word to protect us from evil. To keep us in truth. You? If it says you are wrong? Then, the Word of God was not written by God's will? It was written by the will of men?

Proverbs 14:12 niv
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."


It amazes me how those who elevate their own intellectual arrogance above God's Word see themselves as being of the superior mind. Yet, in the end, they will be the least in the Kingdom when it comes. They learned from a very young age to inflate their sense of self esteem based upon a natural gift. One that most likely made them an outsider to their peers as a child.

Luke 13:30 niv
"Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

Many will say in that day....

"Lord! Lord! Why did you give us all those fossils and give us those who taught with conviction the theory of evolution! And, had all those disengenous intellectually dishonest YEC's! "


And, he will tell them....

"I gave you the GAP teaching to keep you from the deception of both. Those who were willing to deny self and take up their cross are proof that you are without excuse. I gave it to you in my WORD!


Proverbs 30:5 niv
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him."

God's Word is to protect us from evil. Yet, God must allow for all of us to be tested, just like Adam was tested.

Proverbs 17:3 niv
"The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the LORD tests the heart."

Jeremiah 17:10 niv
"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."

God is the great equalizer of men. No one has any position of advantage or superiority before him. Those who think themselves wise over others in their natural abilities will be seen as one's to be pitied.

1 Corinthians 3:19 niv
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"


And, TOE is just that. Craftiness which distorts what truth it may possess, that is now the rally cry for secular humanism. Christians who conform to the world are suckered into it all the time. How do you catch the crafty? First, by allowing them the freedom to expose themselves for what they are. God will judge in the end. And, it is not me who I feel bad for in this situation.

Romans 12:2 niv
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."


1 Corinthians 13:6 niv
"Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth."


Wishing you a nice Day, GeneZ

 

[Scholar in training]

God does not mislead. Men do. And... women.

Can the fallible men who wrote about God, the infallible one, mislead us?

The principle you fail to understand, is that if the Word of God disagrees with what we see as being the Truth, that it is not the Word of God that needs to be modified to make things right. No matter how impossible it may weem to us.

Do you, then, believe that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth?

Joshua 10:12-14
On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel:
"O sun, stand still over Gibeon,
O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

 

[depthdeception]

It amazes me how those who elevate their own intellectual arrogance above God's Word see themselves as being of the superior mind. Yet, in the end, they will be the least in the Kingdom when it comes. They learned from a very young age to inflate their sense of self esteem based upon a natural gift. One that most likely made them an outsider to their peers as a child.

No one here claims to elevate their own "intellectual arrogance" above the Scriptures. Some of us merely question your belief that the way in which you interpret the Scriptures is actually the correct interpretation.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=13&verse=30&version=31&context=verse

And, he will tell them....

"I gave you the GAP teaching to keep you from the deception of both. Those who were willing to deny self and take up their cross are proof that you are without excuse. I gave it to you in my WORD!

Is this a personal revelation? ...because that one's not in my bible.

And, TOE is just that. Craftiness which distorts what truth it may possess, that is now the rally cry for secular humanism. Christians who conform to the world are suckered into it all the time. How do you catch the crafty? First, by allowing them the freedom to expose themselves for what they are. God will judge in the end. And, it is not me who I feel bad for in this situation.

And I can say YEC or gap theory is exactly the same "distortion." What is your point?http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=13&verse=6&version=31&context=verse

 

[Critias]

That's the problem with proof-texting. If the poster just puts up a text you have to guess at the mental processes that went into choosing the text. I have no idea why Vossler chose those texts. The only thing I saw that seemed to be a common thread was the term "worldly" which was also taken out of context. Secular knowledge is not necessarily worldly.

What else should a poster do besides put up text?

This is the problem with all forums. The reader of posts can add their own meaning to what is written and also create the feel of post. The reader can suggest that the author is mean, rude, upset or angry when the author is not.

The reader can tell the author what he/she said when it was not even intended. This is the core problem with people today, we interpret to our own liking, to our own feelings. We negate what the author intended to say and impose our own meaning and feelings into either the text of the Bible or the words of a post here.

I have never stated this. Evolution is scientific knowledge.

So then, you admit that the evolutionary teaching is absent in the Bible? That the Bible does not teach nor hint about a billion year creation?

Would you agree that the Bible says God created the world in six days?

 

[gluadys]

God does not mislead. Men do. And... women.

The principle you fail to understand, is that if the Word of God disagrees with what we see as being the Truth, that it is not the Word of God that needs to be modified to make things right. No matter how impossible it may seem to us.

I understand that principle entirely and agree with it wholeheartedly. That is why I insist that scientific truth cannot possibly disagree with the Word of God, since, to the extent we have a true understanding of creation, that truth is the Word of God. That means that we have to take the truth God left in creation seriously when we wish to understand the truth God left us in scripture and vice versa.

This means, for example, that we will not allow atheists to dictate the philosophical conclusions of science, such as falsely saying that evolution supports atheism or leads to atheism. The truth of scripture forbids accepting such a conclusion. At the same time, we will not accept an interpretation of scripture that conflicts with the best supported theories of science such as evolution, since these have been studied over many years and the probability that they are not true is minimal.

Then, the Word of God was not written by God's will? It was written by the will of men?

This is your basic problem. You think the Word of God exists only in written form. This is contrary to the testimony of that very written form which points to creation as a revelation (i.e. a word) of God. You cannot exalt the written word over the created word of God or vice versa. And remember, both the written word and the created word are subordinate to the incarnate word in Jesus, for the Logos, the 2nd person of the Trinity, IS the only true eternal Word of God.

Jesus is the Word which created the universe, so all things in the universe testify of the Word of God. To limit the Word of God to the words of the bible is to abridge the sovereignty of God to speak as, where and when God wills. It is to make an idol of the words when you should be attentive to the Word.

"I gave you the GAP teaching to keep you from the deception of both. Those who were willing to deny self and take up their cross are proof that you are without excuse. I gave it to you in my WORD!

If the gap teaching is true it will accord with the Word of God revealed in both scripture and nature. I have my doubts about it according with scripture, but I have no doubt that it is falsified by the Word of God revealed in nature.

God is the great equalizer of men. No one has any position of advantage or superiority before him. Those who think themselves wise over others in their natural abilities will be seen as one's to be pitied.

1 Corinthians 3:19 niv
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"

Evolution and other scientific facts are not about wisdom but about knowledge. Knowledge does not necessarily confer wisdom. Indeed one can be puffed up by much knowledge if it is not received with a humble heart. Nevertheless, when knowledge is true, it is still true, even when taught by the arrogant. Truth remains truth even if the one who proclaims it is unwise and unworthy.

And, TOE is just that. Craftiness which distorts what truth it may possess, that is now the rally cry for secular humanism.

You are making baseless accusations since you don't even know what the theory of evolution is. You cannot accurately describe something you have no knowledge of. Take time to study it, and you will see how untrue this description is.

 

[Critias]

You stated this above:

"That is why I insist that scientific truth cannot possibly disagree with the Word of God, since, to the extent we have a true understanding of creation, that truth is the Word of God" -- Gluady's post #267

Does mainstream science have a true understanding of creation? How do you know this to be most certain? Do you not have some trust that it is so?

Is Science on the same level with God's Word?

 

[Critias]

Is it possible to truly understand evolutionand yet disagree with it; coming to a conlcusion that it is a lie(common descent) ?

Or, if one truly understands evolution, one has no choice but to accept it as truth?

 

[depthdeception]

Would you agree that the Bible says God created the world in six days?

I wouldn't.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Is it possible to truly understand evolutionand yet disagree with it; coming to a conlcusion that it is a lie(common descent) ?

Or, if one truly understands evolution, one has no choice but to accept it as truth?

i had an extremely competent philo of biological sciences prof who thought that natural selection was a tautology. and therefore believed that as our understanding of genetics increased we would find gene or dna level mechanisms that would change our understanding of evolutionary mechanisms greatly.

i've meant several OEC PhD level researchers that believed that at crucial points in evolutionary history God supernaturally nudged a particular organism to mate with another and maybe even modified DNA in their embryos, but that this was not scientifically observable.

so the answer is that people can understand deeply these things and differ over pieces. the problem is that those who differ with TofE here do not seem to do so out of a deep understanding of the science but rather out of a shallow one.

 

[Critias]

I wouldn't.

So when the text says God created the world and all that is in it in six days, that actually isn't written there?

Are we just hallucinating when we see this in Genesis and Exodus?

 

[Critias]

i had an extremely competent philo of biological sciences prof who thought that natural selection was a tautology. and therefore believed that as our understanding of genetics increased we would find gene or dna level mechanisms that would change our understanding of evolutionary mechanisms greatly.

i've meant several OEC PhD level researchers that believed that at crucial points in evolutionary history God supernaturally nudged a particular organism to mate with another and maybe even modified DNA in their embryos, but that this was not scientifically observable.

so the answer is that people can understand deeply these things and differ over pieces. the problem is that those who differ with TofE here do not seem to do so out of a deep understanding of the science but rather out of a shallow one.

So would your conclusion be that one must have a deep understanding of evolution in order to reject it and accept the six day creation statement in the Bible?

Or can one accept what the Bible states on faith alone?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

So would your conclusion be that one must have a deep understanding of evolution in order to reject it and accept the six day creation statement in the Bible?

Or can one accept what the Bible states on faith alone?

i personally have never met a YEC with a BS/BA level understanding of the biology of TofE. that is just a sample size problem, i'm sure.

to reject or to accept anything to me requires a deep understanding, that is why i study. but this is not a common idea, most people i know have limited understanding of the things they believe.

i dont separate faith and reason, seeing them rather as a continuum summed up in:
i believe that i might know(faith preceeds reason) and
faith has its reasons that reason can not know(faith is extrarational not irrational)

the best sermon illustration of by faith alone is applicable.
an eye alone is the organ of sight, but an eye alone on a table is sightless.
.....

 

[Critias]

i personally have never met a YEC with a BS/BA level understanding of the biology of TofE. that is just a sample size problem, i'm sure.

to reject or to accept anything to me requires a deep understanding, that is why i study. but this is not a common idea, most people i know have limited understanding of the things they believe.

i dont separate faith and reason, seeing them rather as a continuum summed up in:
i believe that i might know(faith preceeds reason) and
faith has its reasons that reason can not know(faith is extrarational not irrational)

the best sermon illustration of by faith alone is applicable.
an eye alone is the organ of sight, but an eye alone on a table is sightless.
.....

So you had a deep understanding of who Jesus Christ is when you accepted Him as your Savior?

Do you expect people to have a deep understand of Jesus before they accept Him as their Savior?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

So you had a deep understanding of who Jesus Christ is when you accepted Him as your Savior?

Do you expect people to have a deep understand of Jesus before they accept Him as their Savior?

depends on how you define deep.
i became a Christian in my early 20's after a half a dozen years of study. In fact, it was half way through a book by Rushdoony called Institutes of Biblical Law. I had read the Scriptures from cover to cover twice by that point.
compared to 30 years later it was shallow but nowhere near the Evangelism Explosion type of knowledge i see Christians teaching to gain new converts.

The border of the Church is a Nicean level creedal understanding. which i think is obtainable in about 1 year of study for most people after a profession of faith, to join the Church. Can people believe on less, yes, but if it remains at that childish, immature level for years it is not true faith but a counterfeit.


....

 

[depthdeception]

So when the text says God created the world and all that is in it in six days, that actually isn't written there?

Are we just hallucinating when we see this in Genesis and Exodus?

It's written there, but that does not mean that this is what the text "says." If you are asking me if this is how the text reads in reference to linguistic symbols (words), then i will say yes. However, if you are asking if this is what the meaning of the linguistic symbols is, I will stick by my "no."

 

[Critias]

It's written there, but that does not mean that this is what the text "says." If you are asking me if this is how the text reads in reference to linguistic symbols (words), then i will say yes. However, if you are asking if this is what the meaning of the linguistic symbols is, I will stick by my "no."

what part of the text makes you believe that six days is not really six days?

 

[GenemZ]

Can the fallible men who wrote about God, the infallible one, mislead us?

They did not write "about God." They wrote what God wanted them to write in what was to become Scripture. This reality evades you completely.

Jeremiah 30:2 niv
"This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you."

And there are many more examples of such a thing.

Here is another:

Revelation 19:9 niv
"Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Do you, then, believe that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around the earth?

No. Nor, does that passage teach that.

What you touch upon is how fallible men interpret the infallible. Its like suing a car company because some jerk drove recklessly and harmed himself in what they produced in an excellent fashion. The problem was not with the car. Likewise, men can be stupid. God's Word is infallible when correctly translated. It remains infallible when someone distorts it.

2 Peter 3:16 niv
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

You can't seem to separate faulty interpretation, from what is being interpreted.

There will always be ignorant and unstable minds amongst us. Just as Jesus said there will always be the poor amongst us.

Does one blame the rich for their being the poor? Does one blame the A+ student for those who fail their test? You have.

Just because men distort what the Word says, does not mean the Word is fallible.

Have a nice Day, GeneZ

 

[Critias]

depends on how you define deep.
i became a Christian in my early 20's after a half a dozen years of study. In fact, it was half way through a book by Rushdoony called Institutes of Biblical Law. I had read the Scriptures from cover to cover twice by that point.
compared to 30 years later it was shallow but nowhere near the Evangelism Explosion type of knowledge i see Christians teaching to gain new converts.

The border of the Church is a Nicean level creedal understanding. which i think is obtainable in about 1 year of study for most people after a profession of faith, to join the Church. Can people believe on less, yes, but if it remains at that childish, immature level for years it is not true faith but a counterfeit.


....

Ok, let's put it this, do you think it is ok for one to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior when they have not read about Him in the Bible? (so that they do not have a good understanding of Who He is and What He did)

Would you concil a non-believer to put off accepting Jesus as their Savior until they have studied about Him deeper?