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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

A simple question, I think

Stormy

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Ok I have a thought. Einstein discovered a deep connection between energy and mass. He expressed it in the equation E=mc². Here E represents energy, m represents mass, and c² is a very large number, the square of the speed of light. A photograph showing the conversion of energy into mass has been produced. In this picture a quantum of light, carries energy up from beneath.
In the middle it changes into mass -- two freshly created particles which curve away from each other.


Now multiply this power and light by God-zillions . We have a new Universe.

God did it!
 
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A zero-point Higgs field is void.

LOL, no its not. Morat, you are shameless. You will apparently say anything to make a case against God. Why are you so angry at Him?

"The Higgs' ability to fill space with its mysterious presence makes it a vital component in more ambitious theories of how the Universe burst into existence out of some initial quantum fluctuation, and why the Universe prefers to be filled with matter rather than anti-matter; that is, why there is something rather than nothing. To constrain these ideas more rigorously, and indeed flesh out the whole picture, it is important to find evidence for the Higgs field at first hand - in other words, find the boson. There are unanswered questions: the Higgs' very simplicity and versatility, beloved of theorists, makes it hard to pin down. How many Higgs particles are there? Might it/they be made from still more elementary components? Most crucial, how heavy is it? Our current knowledge can only put its mass roughly between that of an iron atom and three times that of a uranium atom. This is a completely new form of matter about whose nature we still have only vague hints and speculations and its discovery is the most exciting prospect in contemporary particle physics."

Clearly, a Higg's field is NOT empty. This is such a basic fact that I am forced to conclude that you know next to nothing about this subject, or you are a liar in the first degree.
http://hepwww.ph.qmw.ac.uk/epp/higgs5.html
 
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You will apparently say anything to make a case against God. Why are you so angry at Him?

s0uljah... you assume way too much here.

1) He isn't making a case against God, he is arguing against your case for God.
2) Morat will not say something he doesn't believe or that he knows he is wrong in order to make his case. That's a very not-nice thing to say about someone...
3) One cannot be angry with someone they do not even believe exists. That's sheer impossibility.
4) Are you sure he isn't right about the zero point Higg's field?
 
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Yinlowang

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I think what Souljah is saying is that if you have anything, you do not have nothing. Therefore you are not yet at first cause. I would have to agree with him unless we can find evidence that Higgs is primordial. At this point we don't know. Perhaps in 2006 we will find out. (CERN pushed the start date for the large hadron collider out a year, dang it)

Nothing is the hardest topic to get my head arround, I have been trying for along time, but I just cannot get my mind to imagine an absolute state of nothing.
 
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Morat

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  That's okay. Souljah's been insulting me for some time. One more isn't going to break the bank.

  It's a very interesting quote. So? Do you even know what the Higgs is? It's why mass exists. It's a very nifty concept.

  According to the Standard Model, the Higgs field is primordial reality. And, in the beginning, it was empty. Nothing there. Nada. Zilch. An empty Higgs field. Actually, an infinite number of them packed into Planck spaces.

   But, since they were empty, there wasn't anything there. A room with no light is dark, is it not? 0 apples are no apples, correct?

  A zero-point Higgs is nothing. It is, in fact, the barest, utter, most base definition of nothing possible. A zero point Higgs is the most perfect void imaginable. Not only lacking energy or matter, but lacking space or time as well.

   Nothing, however, is an unstable state. And the Higgs, being a quantum field, will no stay "nothing". It would fluctuate, always keeping a net energy of zero.

   However, above a certain critical value, something interesting happens. Symmetry breaks. The Higgs uncouples from gravity. The universe begins with this.

  Your own link, by the way, has this to say:

The Higgs field is a particularly simple one - it has the same properties viewed from every direction, and in important respects is indistinguishable from empty space. Thus physicists conceive of the Higgs field being "switched on", pervading all of space and endowing it with "grain" like that of a plank of wood. The direction of the grain in undetectable, and only becomes important once the Higgs' interactions with other particles are taken into account. for instance, particles called vector bosons can travel with the grain, in which case they move easily for large distances and may be observed as photons - that is, particles of light that we can see or record using a camera; or against, in which case their effective range is much shorter, and we call them W or Z particles. These play a central role in the physics of nuclear reactions, such as those occurring in the core of the sun. The Higgs field enables us to view these apparently unrelated phenomenon as two sides of the same coin; both may be described in terms of the properties of the same vector bosons. When particles of matter such as electrons or quarks (elementary constituents of protons and neutrons, which in turn constitute the atomic nucleus) travel through the grain, they are constantly flipped "head-over-heels". this forces them to move more slowly than their natural speed, that of light, by making them heavy. We believe the Higgs field responsible for endowing virtually all the matter we know about with mass. Like most analogies, the wood-grain one is persuasive but flawed: we should think of the grain as not defining a direction in everyday three-dimensional space, but rather in some abstract internal space populated by various kinds of vector boson, electron and quark. The Higgs' ability to fill space with its mysterious presence makes it a vital component in more ambitious theories of how the Universe burst into existence out of some initial quantum fluctuation, and why the Universe prefers to be filled with matter rather than anti-matter; that is, why there is something rather than nothing

  I can only conclude that either you do not read this links, quoting only the bits you feel relevent, or you have absolutely no interest in understanding these concepts.

Yin: Pre-Big Bang cosmologies are speculative at best. Quite a few bits of important data remain to be found, and some new concepts need to be worked out (quantum gravity). However, I am not claiming the universe did come about this way, or even that it's likely. Only that, as we understand things now, it could have. Souljah wanted to say it was "God or nothing". I pointed out that science has several ideas about it, none of which involve God.

  Souljah's search for "nothing" is fatally flawed because what he's seeking does not, and never has, existed. "Nature abhors a vacuum" is a far truer statement than anyone realized. Souljah's locked into a macroscopic world, with macroscopic instincts and understandings. And they're failing him utterly on the quantum level. *shrug*. He's in good company. A lot of physicsts, in the early days of quantum mechanics, had similiar problems. Einstein was particularly put out. But quantum mechanics has been wildly successful in the last 80 years, and no physicist these days really argues with it. After all, anything that replaces it has to account for it, just as relativity enfolded Newton.

 
 
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Morat

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  It's quite arrogant of you to proclaim me deliberatly deceptive, especially given your knowledge of the field in question is quite limited and often incorrect.

  To be frank: You lack the necessary expertise to even determine whether I am wrong about the Higgs field, much less determine whether I have been deliberatly deceptive.

  If you wish to continue to call me a liar, feel free. It won't change reality in any way, shape, or form.
 
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alexgb00

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Originally posted by Morat
So you want to discuss cosmology?

Okay. If the Big Bang is true. Which model?

Yep. That's pretty much universally accepted. (the universe is expanding).

That's an odd claim. Which model of the big bang is that?

What matter?
Smoke screen!

SimpleChristian, here's what i think. The Big Bang didn't happen. And the whole theory of a big bang was derived from a lack of an explanation that could exclude God. There is simply no evidence for it.

Morat, back when my parents went to school, they were taught that the universe is infinite. If these countless hypotheses keep changing every couple decades, why do you fall for this babble? The Bible's been the same for almost 2000 years. There's no need to change it since it is still accurate.

 
 
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Morat

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Originally posted by alexgb00
Smoke screen!


Morat, back when my parents went to school, they were taught that the universe is infinite. If these countless hypotheses keep changing every couple decades, why do you fall for this babble? The Bible's been the same for almost 2000 years. There's no need to change it since it is still accurate.

 

  "Theories", not hypothesis. Science is not shy about admitting error. The Bible has been claiming rabbit's chew their cud for 2000 years now.

   Rather embarassing.

   So, since you obviously can't answer the rather simple questions I asked, I'd imagine you're not capable of participating in this conversation.

  Oh, in regards to the Big Bang: It was first proposed by a Jesuit. I'd imagine his goals did not include "excluding God".

   As for evidence of the Big Bang: Hubble flow and CMB. Explain them.

 
 
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The Big Bang actually implies a Creator, not the opposite. That, combined with the First Law of Thermodynamics, gives a pretty good argument for a Creator.

Then you have theoritical quantum physics telling you that hypothetically, a chair could "pop" into existence from nothing, to which Morat and company start drooling over, so they can explain the Universe without God.

Its understandable, given their apparent motives.
 
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Morat

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  Souljah: It's really amusing to watch you bring out stawmen. It smacks of such desperation and ignorance. Everytime I'm tempted to cut you a little slack, because it's obvious that physics is outside your realm of expertise (whatever that may be), you do something like this, and I'm reminded that it's my policy not to mock the ignorant, but that I've bang alongside mocking those that refuse to learn.

 
 
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alexgb00

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Morat, you are a living example of a darwinist -- filled with arrogant, foolish pride. You take cheap shots at Creationists, saying confidently that we obviously can't know much about physics, biology, geology, chemistry, etc. I hate that attitude in anybody, not just you. Maybe you should assume that you are talking to your intellectual equals. That will make your behavior a lot nicer.
 
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alexgb00

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Morat, "theory," "theology," "theocracy," "theocentric" are all related words. The root is "theo- ." Webster's New World Dictionary of American English says this:

the|o- (théo) [ Gr theos, God  ? IE *dhewes-, to storm, breathe  L furere, to rage] combining form God or a god [theocentric] Also, before a vowel, the-

"Theory" means nothing more than a "belief." The word "theory" doesn't change the fact that the BB idea is just an unproven and unprovable belief.

 
 
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Originally posted by alexgb00
Morat, "theory," "theology," "theocracy," "theocentric" are all related words. The root is "theo- ." Webster's New World Dictionary of American English says this:

Bzzt. Wrong. The word "theory" has a different origin. From the American Heritage Dictionary:

Late Latin theoria, from Greek theoria, from theoros, spectator : probably thea, a viewing + -oros, seeing (from horan, to see).]
 
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alexgb00

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LiveFreeOrDie, i believe you. But here's one definition from my dictionary:

Definition 6 -- popularly, a mere conjecture, or guess.

If the BB theory is a simple "guess," a shot in the dark, why would you honestly wish to believe it?

Your definition says the word comes from "spectator." But who was there to see it?
 
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seebs

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I don't think it's that people "wish to believe" the big bang theory. It's that it appears to be the best theory to explain the observed phenomena, as far as it goes, and that using the best available theory tends to help you progress towards improvements in your theories.
 
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