A second thought about Mary.(Moved from General Theology)

[Hairy Tic]

Whatever the details be... she died and her tomb was found empty in the same manner as Christ's... it's a 'tradition'-based fable, not backed up by the inspired scriptures...

## And before they were written, they were traditions. Saint Paul had his Eucharistic teaching from tradition: he says so. And it is bad exegesis to take what Jesus says about the "traditions of the fathers" in Judaism, & to apply it without further ado to Apostolic tradition: because Jesus was not talking about, & therefore was not condemning, Apostolic tradition. He was talking about the sort of tradition in Judaism that was used to negate part of Scripture. Fundamentalists do this all the time, for they forget that they are governed by tradition.

Being a tradition =///= being untrustworthy. There are plenty of books that are untrustworthy. It's mere superstition to imagine that something is more true for being written, or less true for not being written.

 

[Hairy Tic]

She must also believe that no miracle has occurred since the scripture was written.

## The only Scripture vouched for as [Sacred] Scripture is the "Old Testament".

• God's New Testament = "This is the NT in My Body & My Blood" (Matthew 26.26)
  
• Man's New Testament = 1189 chapters of 27 books from Matthew to Revelation.

Man's New Testament (MNT) is anti-Scriptural, for in Luke 16 Jesus says:

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Not: "If they listen to Romans/Galatians/Revelation/..." or some other stuff - but Moses and the Prophets. Are Romans, Galatians, Acts, Ephesians, Revelation, part of "Moses and the Prophets" ? Of course not. God HATES the MNT: if He had wanted one, He would have said. He said no such thing, & neither did Jesus or the Holy Spirit: so He does not want it. It is sheer sophistry to pretend that God in any way countenances the MNT. So no Christian can tolerate it. Simples.

 

[Fireinfolding]

How is it a mans new covenant when the apostles confirmed from Moses and the prophets the very covenant he said he'd cut a new?

Jerm 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Where do you think they were quoting and expounding it from?

Jesus said to them concerning the prophets

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken.

And here...

John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (just like Abrahams words to the Rich man)

Jesus expounded out of the scriptures concerning himself

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Why?

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Paul encourages the same

2Titus 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

And he had to do this...

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Faith cometh by hearing the same as Paul taught persuading others of Christ out of these...

Acts 28:23 Paul....persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great,saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Same is shown in Philip...

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And even by the same...

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

And we know...

2Titus 3:16-17 All scripture is givenby inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1Tim 1:14 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Theres many more then whats posted concerning the next two

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

So Paul says...

1Cr 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

He knew, because it says...

Jerm 17:15 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. (see Heb 3:12 also)


Whereas Paul speaks after the same manner here...


1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Because...

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.


2Titus 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ephes 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Even as by the same...

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Psalm 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

As Paul says

Romans 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

As Jesus says

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

As Provs says

Prov 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

As Rev says

Rev 2:2.... thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Thats why the Bereans searched the scriptures to see whether they spake was true, even as Jesus said this..

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

John 30:21 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Which is not even a tenth of them. Of these dont even mention what was written of the new testament in accordance with the similitudes contained therein or the picture contained in the "vision of all" but at least gives enough to bear witness to the apostles proving Christ from the law and the prophets and which would further show how it is the church is built upon both the prophets and the apostles Christ being the cheif cornerstone. Peter spake at the council and James gave his judgment according to the agreement of the prophets. How on earth one can say its a mans covenant when they clearly quote what God says from the scriptures beforehand expounding Christ to them by them?

 

[Fireinfolding]

## Self-knowledge seems not to work that way. Saints, don't think they are St. Paul, that wonderful Apostle, thought he was "the chief of sinners". Does that sound like the word of a man who was a writer of Scripture, the greatest missionary in the history of the Church, an Apostle, a founder of many Churches, a teacher outstanding among theologians, and - let's not forget - a future martyr ?

This is interesting...

Psalm 107:8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!

The scriptures ask a question concerning finding a faithful man

Prov 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?

Whereas this is mirrored in Paul proclamation concerning himself

1Tit 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[Hairy Tic]

How is it a mans new covenant when the apostles confirmed from Moses and the prophets the very covenant he said he'd cut a new?

## Because Jesus was - from a purely human POV - just another man. Anyone can claim a crucified Jew is the Messiah - that doesn't make it true. Anyone can claim he fulfills Scripture - that's easy to claim, if one compares his career, & what had to be said about him if the claims for him were to be shot down in flames. Everyone likes to believe they are special - & in that culture, the Essenes applied the OT to themselves, & the sect that formed around the crucified Jew applied the OT to themselves, & to their Teacher, as an expression of this. If it doesn't follow that the Essenes were predicted in the OT, or that God had the Essenes in view as the fulfilment of prophecy, then there is not one reason - humanly speaking - why the sect that formed around Jesus should be regarded any differently.

NT assertions of such fulfilment mean nothing - Mormonism makes great claims for its holy books & its Prophet, & its "prophets, seers, and revelators". The Koran is presented as the direct speech of God. Christians are not impressed, even so.

During his ministry, there were no fulfilled prophecies of him - what the gospels present as fulfilled prophecies, are bits of the OT applied to him, to make him look important.

But the Prophets were not talking about him - they were talking of their own times. So-called prediction is often Utopian forecasting (Isaiah 65 is a good example); or denunciation of contemporary evils (Isaiah 1); or what amounts to political analysis (much of Jeremiah). Jeremiah was on very safe ground in saying Nebuchadnezzar would take Jerusalem; that would have been seen as a foregone conclusion by any reasonably intelligent observer. Political analysis doesn't require the Holy Spirit (unless the Holy Spirit is a name for common sense; which is an interesting possibility). And when they do try their hand at prediction, the Prophets often chalk epic fails: such as Ezekiel 26, predicting the fall of Tyre to the besieging forces of Nebuchadnezzar. 13 years & and three chapters later, the prediction is withdrawn; it did not come true. Prophecy is not even usually predictive - just sometimes; & it is not guaranteed to be accurate; nor is a prediction that is verified by events an infallible sign of a true prophet; for a false prophet might also predict something that is verified by events.

Still less is OT prophecy concerned with Christ. Partly because the notion of prediction of something centuries in the future is alien to OT prophecy, partly because the notion that it is about Christ is a post-OT illusion. It has no basis in the texts. The NT writers believed this illusion was not an illusion, but their ideas of the OT do not justice to what the texts actually say, for a number of reasons. And this misconception about OT prophecy was passed on & became part of Christian Biblical interpretation: until the 18th century or so; since when the Churches have been finding a truer view of the Prophets & OT prophecy.

The Christian prophet Agabus in Acts prophesies like an OT prophet. His prediction is of an event not far distant; & the prophet in Jerusalem during the Jewish War who mourned the fall of the City & the Temple before it occurred is even closer to them in tone.

So why believe in the claims for Jesus ? Not because of historical evidence - lots of characters are historical, but that is not a reason to adore them, as we do Jesus. Belief in the claims for Jesus comes from revelation by God, just as in Matthew 16: Peter realised Jesus was the Messiah, not by reading the OT, but by revelation from the Heavenly Father of Jesus. The opponents of Jesus also had the OT - it did not reveal to Jesus to them, because it is a book, something belonging to this world; Jesus & his Father do not. So Jesus brings in the new age of the Father's Righteousness, that lasts for ever.

[Gigantic SNIP of lots of texts & questions based on them, most or all of which are accounted for by my post (& if they hadn't been snipped, there would have been no room for my comments ]

How on earth one can say its a mans covenant when they clearly quote what God says from the scriptures beforehand expounding Christ to them by them?

 

[Fireinfolding]

## Because Jesus was - from a purely human POV - just another man. Anyone can claim a crucified Jew is the Messiah - that doesn't make it true. Anyone can claim he fulfills Scripture - that's easy to claim, if one compares his career, & what had to be said about him if the claims for him were to be shot down in flames. Everyone likes to believe they are special - & in that culture, the Essenes applied the OT to themselves, & the sect that formed around the crucified Jew applied the OT to themselves, & to their Teacher, as an expression of this. If it doesn't follow that the Essenes were predicted in the OT, or that God had the Essenes in view as the fulfilment of prophecy, then there is not one reason - humanly speaking - why the sect that formed around Jesus should be regarded any differently.

He was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, thats not of human origin and is declared such by the question in the scriptures which begs the question to WHO that is


Prov 30:4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

This is why pointing out that David (his physical body as a man) did not ascend and to whom it was speaking of...

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Further explained

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So these aided the apostles in proving Jesus Christ.

NT assertions of such fulfilment mean nothing - Mormonism makes great claims for its holy books & its Prophet, & its "prophets, seers, and revelators". The Koran is presented as the direct speech of God. Christians are not impressed, even so.

During his ministry, there were no fulfilled prophecies of him - what the gospels present as fulfilled prophecies, are bits of the OT applied to him, to make him look important.

But the Prophets were not talking about him - they were talking of their own times. So-called prediction is often Utopian forecasting (Isaiah 65 is a good example); or denunciation of contemporary evils (Isaiah 1); or what amounts to political analysis (much of Jeremiah). Jeremiah was on very safe ground in saying Nebuchadnezzar would take Jerusalem; that would have been seen as a foregone conclusion by any reasonably intelligent observer. Political analysis doesn't require the Holy Spirit (unless the Holy Spirit is a name for common sense; which is an interesting possibility). And when they do try their hand at prediction, the Prophets often chalk epic fails: such as Ezekiel 26, predicting the fall of Tyre to the besieging forces of Nebuchadnezzar. 13 years & and three chapters later, the prediction is withdrawn; it did not come true. Prophecy is not even usually predictive - just sometimes; & it is not guaranteed to be accurate; nor is a prediction that is verified by events an infallible sign of a true prophet; for a false prophet might also predict something that is verified by events.

Still less is OT prophecy concerned with Christ. Partly because the notion of prediction of something centuries in the future is alien to OT prophecy, partly because the notion that it is about Christ is a post-OT illusion. It has no basis in the texts. The NT writers believed this illusion was not an illusion, but their ideas of the OT do not justice to what the texts actually say, for a number of reasons. And this misconception about OT prophecy was passed on & became part of Christian Biblical interpretation: until the 18th century or so; since when the Churches have been finding a truer view of the Prophets & OT prophecy.

The Christian prophet Agabus in Acts prophesies like an OT prophet. His prediction is of an event not far distant; & the prophet in Jerusalem during the Jewish War who mourned the fall of the City & the Temple before it occurred is even closer to them in tone.

So why believe in the claims for Jesus ? Not because of historical evidence - lots of characters are historical, but that is not a reason to adore them, as we do Jesus. Belief in the claims for Jesus comes from revelation by God, just as in Matthew 16: Peter realised Jesus was the Messiah, not by reading the OT, but by revelation from the Heavenly Father of Jesus. The opponents of Jesus also had the OT - it did not reveal to Jesus to them, because it is a book, something belonging to this world; Jesus & his Father do not. So Jesus brings in the new age of the Father's Righteousness, that lasts for ever.

I havent a clue to what you are going on about, they were persuaded out of the law and the prophets no doubt having their understansing opened even as it speaks to that also.

To the law and to the testimony I mentioned in my post, the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, we having ALSO the more sure word, and that testimony is confimed in you. None of the above in my post contradicts that I included with the words "Theres many more then whats posted concerning the next two" in my first post to you in respects to these very things.

Scripture shows how they preached

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

As long as he doesn't wear a skirt

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

NKJV) Nahum 3:5 " Behold, I [am] against you," says the LORD of hosts; "I will lift your skirts over your face, I will show the nations your nakedness, And the kingdoms your shame.
[Revelation 17:16?]

Reve 17:16 And the ten horns which thou saw and the beast, these shall be hating the Prostitute and desolate they shall be making Her and naked.
And the fleshes of Her they shall be eating and Her they shall be burning in fire.

​

Heres a skirt

Zech 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Nice! LOL

I just happen to have a thread on that passage:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7367679/
Zech 8:23 and JESUS



.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nice! LOL

I just happen to have a thread on that passage:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7367679/
Zech 8:23 and JESUS

Welcome to the netherworld of Mariology and Hagiography. I had wondered for a long time when this thread might be moved here.

 

[justinangel]

We know she identified herself as a handmaid.

Why didn't she identify herself as a diety, the Queen, or sinless?

We can't say it was humility, because Jesus revealed his divinity.

Why nothing from the lowly servant?

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one.”

Interseting, nothing from Mary.

Hmmmmm.

Luke does have Mary say: "Behold, from now on all ages will call me blessed." The honour and veneration of the mother of our Lord began with her kinswoman Elizabeth: "Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled." Praising Mary for her act of faith, which in effect helped save the world by the grace of God, isn't idolizing or worshipping her as though she were a goddess. However, when Mary declared, "Let it be done to me according to your word," she did in a sense intimate that she was one with the Father by aligning her will with His. By hearing the word of God and keeping it (cf. Lk. 11:28), Mary conformed her human nature with the divine nature.

Not unlike any other human being, who bears the image of God by being able to freely choose what is good and right (cf. Gen. 1:27), Mary could be and was "God-like" in her holiness and righteousness through the grace of God (cf. Eph. 2:24; Heb.12:9) as was evident by her humble obedience to God's will. Far from being corrupted by selfish and lustful desires and enslaved to the allurements of this world, Mary consecrated herself to God. And by doing so, her character became like the very moral and spiritual nature of God. Her soul "magnified the Lord" and 'proclaimed His glory' in partaking of the divine nature. Unlike Eve, Mary wasn't a vile sinner whose nature conforms with that of Satan (cf. Jn. 8:44) or is any better than that of a rebellious beast (cf. 2 Pet. 2:12). On the contrary, Mary was "full of grace" and had 'no cause to fear, for she had found favour with God' (cf. Lk 1:28, 30; 1 Jn. 3:21).

As a result, 'God has exalted and done great things for her in her lowly estate' (Lk. 1:46-49). She has received "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" as an immediately present reward by virtue of her Divine Maternity in the order of grace.(cf. Eph. 1:3). By having partook of the divine nature in her particular way, Mary is entitled to receive all the blessings and Divine promises which pertain to a life of goodness and godliness (cf. 2 Pet. 2:1-3). And one such promise is that all generations shall honour and praise her for her 'faith working through love' (Gal 5:5-6).

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. ​

2 Peter 1, 3-4

Jesus also revealed his humanity for us to conform our human nature with his in partaking of the divine life as we, too, collaborate with the Holy Spirit in our lives through His grace. In doing so, our human nature bears the image of the hypostatic union between the Divine Word and His humanity.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
1 John 1, 5-7

If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
1 John 2, 29

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.
1 John 3, 2-3

PAX