A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

Eternally Grateful · Dec 25, 2024

Valletta said:
As to the Holy Eucharist, Jesus tells us to "do this." That is good enough for me.

He tells us to take eat, often in remembrance of him

If this was the Eucharist, i would agree 100 %.

but those who teach it use John 6 as their guide.

In John 6, He is talking to people who he fed the day before who came looking after him. Jesus knew their hearts and understood they just came to get fed.

So jesus tells them to not work for food which perishes (you have to eat often, or your will die) but work for food which does not perish but endures to eternal life.

He said whoever eats this food will never hunger, and never thirst. He said unlike manna which their fathers ate, whoever eats this food will live forever. He said they will never die, they will have eternal life. They will never be lost. And Jesus himself said he will raise them from th dead.

He called that food the bread from heaven, his flesh and blood. And said straight up it is the spirit who gives life, the words he speaks are spirit and life.

He was telling them to not work for physical food. Which can not save your life. But spiritual food. Which endures forever. This spiritual food was what he was telling them, his words. Aswitnessed by peter himself. “Where can we go lord. You have the WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE”

So while I believe God did command us to eat often the passover lamb and the bread which he now instituted to remember his death, I do not believe it is the same bread and wine of John 6,

why would you eat this bread and wine that anyone who eats will live forever and not die. And then continue to eat it often. And not have that promise?

it makes no sense.

boughtwithaprice · Dec 25, 2024

Also Rome did not rule the world for 1500 years
We do know that Rome fell in 476 AD, right?

The Church did not rule the world by the power of the Roman Empire. The Empire was defeated by the glory of God and the witness He gave to His Church. Those that wanted to hold onto the power of the Roman Empire broke away from the Church. The schism was stated in the new Rome, Constantinople

The Catholic Church does not exist by the power of Rome, but by the power of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles. Her detractors can’t even get the story right

boughtwithaprice · Dec 25, 2024

Valletta said:
As to the Holy Eucharist, Jesus tells us to "do this." That is good enough for me.

Funny that the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is now described as a work separate from faith in Jesus. We consume Him as He commands and are told that we are inferior to those who merely imagine Him?

Since when is obedience, which is true faith, allowed to be mocked as an addition?

The Bible speaks against imagination by saying anyone that says Jesus is come in the flesh is of God. Every spirit that confesses not that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God. 1John4:2-3

He is not imaginary. His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink. No room for imagination there

We also do not take the Eucharist to never be hungry again. We take the Eucharist to experience Jesus in the flesh and have a hunger for more. God is infinite and we can never know Him fully. We can always learn more and receive more of Him. We do not act like the Church in Laodicea that says I am rich well fed and have need of nothing. We are poor in spirit

It is ironic that our detractors call our Lady an idol, now they reduce our Lord Jesus Christ to the level of and idol and call us unbiblical

What twisted logic is this? The Apostle John says it is not of God

Fear not. Our Lord has overcome the world

boughtwithaprice · Dec 26, 2024

Eternally Grateful said:
Lol. Well you’re not starting out very good. They were legit sent questions.

Inever said they were unfruitful. I asked what they were for. What do you recieve when you do them.

Yes, and in context of John 6, This food is the food which endures forever. Which one can eat of it and not die. Whoever eats will NEVER hunger or thirst. They will. Live forever. And have Gods assurance that he will raise them on the last day.

Unlike manna, where you eat often (except saterday) yet you still die. You eat this food once and you live forever.

I do not see this in the Eucharist.

yes, and different context. Unlike the food which endures forever. This food we eat often. And unlike the food which gives eternal life to everyone who eats it, This is more like manna, where we eat it often, but still die.

Ahh, here we go. You answered my question.

so you take this to cleanse you from sin. So here is one work which you claim one must do to have your sin cleansed or forgiven. Thank you

well considering the roman church by the power of rome ruled the world for the 1st 1500 years I would not expect anythign else. Anyone who taught otherwise would be imprisoned or killed.

I tend to just rather read the word and see what it says. i do nto see the Eucharist in the word. For one, people eat it all the time, so they still hunger, they still thirst. they still die physically. And are not assured they will not in the end die spiritually. So it is not the food which endures forever.

Amen. I was baptized a year after i was born again

Yes, i was baptized by God the moment I trusted in him, again, i was baptized in water a year later

Ah, so you answered my question again, thank you.

You believe that one can be saved apart from the work of righteousness which we call water baptism, but that is not the norm.

yes, I was born of water and spirit, i was born again, when i did as Jesus told nicodemus, that as moses raised the serpent, so to must the son of man be lifted up. That whever believes will not perish, but live forever. For god so loved the world he gave his only son, that whoever believed in him will nbot perish, but live forever.

Jesus was not sent to judge but to save, whoever believes is not condemned, whoever does nto believe is condemned already.

Again, i was born again when I called out to God. I was baptized into christ and his body and his death by God himself. I was baptized in water in obedience to christ a year late.r

I have never met a soul who refused baptism. Have you?

God will have mercy on anyone who calls out to him, he will save them on the spot.

so your working in order to recieve grace.

Whatever happened to if it is if grace it is no longer of works. Otherwise grace is no longer grace?

I was baptized by the circumcision of God made without hands.

And now you adding another work to gain forgiveness, you confess to a priest. Unless you do this work. You may not have forgiveness..

Thts a lot of works to try to save oneself. Where does God and grace come into the picture

I can;t? Says who? You just put your whole church in question. You stated the following.

To which I legitimately questioned and the reason i asked what i did

And you just spent most of this post telling me how much work you need to do to make sure you are saved (although you said that we can still be saved even if we do not do these. The fact remains. You are doing them to get sin cleansed, to be forgiven, and to be saved

Actually yes it is.

All church’s teach this

But not all churches teaches that these works are done to gain or earn the grace of God. They teach they are a result of being saved, or in gratitude to god saving them, they come out of faith. you trust God with your eternity, You most likely will trust God with this life also

Now wait a minute, you said we are born again by baptism, now your saying baptism comes after??

Paul said I can be confident that he who began a good will complete it. i do not need to hope he may complete it I can know he will.

Sorry my friend, I am not here to bash a church, I just asked a question because of somethign you said, which is different than what I have heard. And sadly. What you said, and what you believe contradict itself.

if the church causes you to do that, then yes, i have a problem with that church no matter what church it is

The whole thing comes down to one fact.
Do you believe that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Jesus or not?

Do you deny that Jesus is come in the flesh? Is His presence dependent on the imaginations of men? The Apostle John says in his epistle that thinking is not of God. Is that not what you say?

Rome fell in 476AD. The Catholic Church does not rule by the power of Rome, but by the Holy Spirit that empowered the Apostles on Pentecost.
There is no history of Protestant thought prior to 1507. Have you read the Apostolic teaching?

If not, that is irresponsible of you and a disservice to those that would take your advice. If you are denying Our Lord in the Eucharist and are wrong, you do know that you are speaking against God Himself, right?
It would be better for you if you had more historical evidence rather than your own bold claims on how to interpret the Bible. Otherwise that is some shaky ground on which you stand.

It doesn’t matter what you think of me, as I know I am but a worm in the presence of the Almighty God, you will have an easy time attacking my flesh. If you want to preach in the name of Jesus, by your own interpretation of the Bible (whom Paul preaches), then you must be ready to answer the question, “Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?”
Always be ready to give an answer to anyone that asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. If it is your own understanding then that position is anti biblical because God’s word says lean not to your own understanding, but you do.
Why is that?

Study history and the Apostolic teaching, then get back to me. Your statements so far do not indicate that you have knowledge in that area

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

boughtwithaprice said:
Also Rome did not rule the world for 1500 years
We do know that Rome fell in 476 AD, right?

Rome (the church) ruled the world for 1500 years.

If the church did nto lose power. there would never have been a reformation. they all would hjave been tried as heretics and either cast out or executed.

boughtwithaprice said:
The Church did not rule the world by the power of the Roman Empire. The Empire was defeated by the glory of God and the witness He gave to His Church. Those that wanted to hold onto the power of the Roman Empire broke away from the Church. The schism was stated in the new Rome, Constantinople

lol. Ok. whatever.. Nice try

boughtwithaprice said:
The Catholic Church does not exist by the power of Rome, but by the power of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles. Her detractors can’t even get the story right

I disagree.. It is a doctrinal issue that causes my disagreement, But it is not a catholic church things. it is just a doctrinal thing.

Can you please respond to the rest of my post.

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

boughtwithaprice said:
Funny that the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is now described as a work separate from faith in Jesus. We consume Him as He commands and are told that we are inferior to those who merely imagine Him?

Since when is obedience, which is true faith, allowed to be mocked as an addition?

The Bible speaks against imagination by saying anyone that says Jesus is come in the flesh is of God. Every spirit that confesses not that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God. 1John4:2-3

He is not imaginary. His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink. No room for imagination there

We also do not take the Eucharist to never be hungry again. We take the Eucharist to experience Jesus in the flesh and have a hunger for more. God is infinite and we can never know Him fully. We can always learn more and receive more of Him. We do not act like the Church in Laodicea that says I am rich well fed and have need of nothing. We are poor in spirit

It is ironic that our detractors call our Lady an idol, now they reduce our Lord Jesus Christ to the level of and idol and call us unbiblical

What twisted logic is this? The Apostle John says it is not of God

Fear not. Our Lord has overcome the world

See where you made a mistake here.

You failed to respond to my post.

Here I will repost. Can you try again?

Eternally Grateful said:
Lol. Well you’re not starting out very good. They were legit sent questions.

Inever said they were unfruitful. I asked what they were for. What do you recieve when you do them.

Yes, and in context of John 6, This food is the food which endures forever. Which one can eat of it and not die. Whoever eats will NEVER hunger or thirst. They will. Live forever. And have Gods assurance that he will raise them on the last day.

Unlike manna, where you eat often (except saterday) yet you still die. You eat this food once and you live forever.

I do not see this in the Eucharist.

yes, and different context. Unlike the food which endures forever. This food we eat often. And unlike the food which gives eternal life to everyone who eats it, This is more like manna, where we eat it often, but still die.

Ahh, here we go. You answered my question.

so you take this to cleanse you from sin. So here is one work which you claim one must do to have your sin cleansed or forgiven. Thank you

well considering the roman church by the power of rome ruled the world for the 1st 1500 years I would not expect anythign else. Anyone who taught otherwise would be imprisoned or killed.

I tend to just rather read the word and see what it says. i do nto see the Eucharist in the word. For one, people eat it all the time, so they still hunger, they still thirst. they still die physically. And are not assured they will not in the end die spiritually. So it is not the food which endures forever.

Amen. I was baptized a year after i was born again

Yes, i was baptized by God the moment I trusted in him, again, i was baptized in water a year later

Ah, so you answered my question again, thank you.

You believe that one can be saved apart from the work of righteousness which we call water baptism, but that is not the norm.

yes, I was born of water and spirit, i was born again, when i did as Jesus told nicodemus, that as moses raised the serpent, so to must the son of man be lifted up. That whever believes will not perish, but live forever. For god so loved the world he gave his only son, that whoever believed in him will nbot perish, but live forever.

Jesus was not sent to judge but to save, whoever believes is not condemned, whoever does nto believe is condemned already.

Again, i was born again when I called out to God. I was baptized into christ and his body and his death by God himself. I was baptized in water in obedience to christ a year late.r

I have never met a soul who refused baptism. Have you?

God will have mercy on anyone who calls out to him, he will save them on the spot.

so your working in order to recieve grace.

Whatever happened to if it is if grace it is no longer of works. Otherwise grace is no longer grace?

I was baptized by the circumcision of God made without hands.

And now you adding another work to gain forgiveness, you confess to a priest. Unless you do this work. You may not have forgiveness..

Thts a lot of works to try to save oneself. Where does God and grace come into the picture

I can;t? Says who? You just put your whole church in question. You stated the following.

To which I legitimately questioned and the reason i asked what i did

And you just spent most of this post telling me how much work you need to do to make sure you are saved (although you said that we can still be saved even if we do not do these. The fact remains. You are doing them to get sin cleansed, to be forgiven, and to be saved

Actually yes it is.

All church’s teach this

But not all churches teaches that these works are done to gain or earn the grace of God. They teach they are a result of being saved, or in gratitude to god saving them, they come out of faith. you trust God with your eternity, You most likely will trust God with this life also

Now wait a minute, you said we are born again by baptism, now your saying baptism comes after??

Paul said I can be confident that he who began a good will complete it. i do not need to hope he may complete it I can know he will.

Sorry my friend, I am not here to bash a church, I just asked a question because of somethign you said, which is different than what I have heard. And sadly. What you said, and what you believe contradict itself.

if the church causes you to do that, then yes, i have a problem with that church no matter what church it is

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

boughtwithaprice said:
Funny that the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ is now described as a work separate from faith in Jesus. We consume Him as He commands and are told that we are inferior to those who merely imagine Him?

Since when is obedience, which is true faith, allowed to be mocked as an addition?

The Bible speaks against imagination by saying anyone that says Jesus is come in the flesh is of God. Every spirit that confesses not that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God. 1John4:2-3

He is not imaginary. His flesh is real food and His blood is real drink. No room for imagination there

We also do not take the Eucharist to never be hungry again. We take the Eucharist to experience Jesus in the flesh and have a hunger for more. God is infinite and we can never know Him fully. We can always learn more and receive more of Him. We do not act like the Church in Laodicea that says I am rich well fed and have need of nothing. We are poor in spirit

It is ironic that our detractors call our Lady an idol, now they reduce our Lord Jesus Christ to the level of and idol and call us unbiblical

What twisted logic is this? The Apostle John says it is not of God

Fear not. Our Lord has overcome the world

See where you made a mistake here.

You failed to respond

boughtwithaprice said:
The whole thing comes down to one fact.
Do you believe that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Jesus or not?

Actually it does come down to a fact.

You you believe what Jesus said or not?

if you do. you would believe whoever eats this "food" would get what jesus promised.

Again No one who takes the eucharist is assured of anything Jesus promised them they would get..

so by math,, you see the point correct?

boughtwithaprice said:
Do you deny that Jesus is come in the flesh? Is His presence dependent on the imaginations of men? The Apostle John says in his epistle that thinking is not of God. Is that not what you say?

Rome fell in 476AD. The Catholic Church does not rule by the power of Rome, but by the Holy Spirit that empowered the Apostles on Pentecost.
There is no history of Protestant thought prior to 1507. Have you read the Apostolic teaching?

If not, that is irresponsible of you and a disservice to those that would take your advice. If you are denying Our Lord in the Eucharist and are wrong, you do know that you are speaking against God Himself, right?

I am denying the eucharist is the flesh and blood of John 6.

And you have done nothing in this post to prove me wrong on this matter.

why do you not want to discuss John 6?

boughtwithaprice said:
It would be better for you if you had more historical evidence rather than your own bold claims on how to interpret the Bible. Otherwise that is some shaky ground on which you stand.

lol Historical evidence.

You realise the jews used this tactic against Jesus do you not?

boughtwithaprice said:
It doesn’t matter what you think of me, as I know I am but a worm in the presence of the Almighty God, you will have an easy time attacking my flesh. If you want to preach in the name of Jesus, by your own interpretation of the Bible (whom Paul preaches), then you must be ready to answer the question, “Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?”

1. I am not attacking you. If you feel attacked. you have issues.
2. I have answered the questions completely of why I do not believe John 6 is the Eucharist. Not by private interpretation. just by using the words of Jesus himself. You can;t say you know Jesus, when you deny the words of Jesus.. and then just point to some church or some history.

boughtwithaprice said:
Always be ready to give an answer to anyone that asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

I gave you an answer.

When will you give an answer by explainign John 6 as I did. or at least countering me and my points?

boughtwithaprice said:
If it is your own understanding then that position is anti biblical because God’s word says lean not to your own understanding, but you do.
Why is that?

Yet you have not given me any understanding of anything. Again, Can you try??

If you have nothing further to say about John 6. I must take Jesus at his word.. Not you

boughtwithaprice said:
Study history and the Apostolic teaching, then get back to me.

So I should study History. Not the bible?

Your joking right?

The history was written by men, Men who was in charge

the bible was written by God.

but I should trust the history of men more than the bible of God?

boughtwithaprice said:
Your statements so far do not indicate that you have knowledge in that area

Oh I have alot of knowledge in this area,

I also have a whole bible that shows me what happens when we trust history more than the word of God.

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

boughtwithaprice said:
Yes, I see your reasoning and I see no conflict with Catholic teaching. We are accused that we want to earn salvation by good works. This is not true. Works do not result in salvation, rather they are a sign of faith in our Lord and keep us on the path to life.

I will ask once again.

How can you claim that you do not want to earn salvation by works, when your whole gospel teaching is based on works?

concerning baptism - Remember, Circumcision, which was performed by someone else. much like baptism, was considered a work by Paul,

Have you ever witnessed a circumcision? I have, as a corpsman in the US navy we had a 22 year old man want one. What many do not know is you can not numb the area (at least you could not in the 80's) because it restricted blood flow, so you had to go with no help. The person actually went into cardiac arrest due to the pain (imagine someone in the OT or the jews trying to demand gentiles recieve this, so they could get to heaven) and you wonder why Paul called it mutilation. anyway, my point is, This was commanded By God to the jew according to the law. Yet had zero to do with anyone's salvation. And you want us to believe some pastor immersing you in water (You believe baptism is sprinking correct?) does have something to do with someones salvation?

Concerning penance, or confessing to a priest.

You realise in the OT they had to not only confess to a priest, or a levite, but they had to bring a lamb without spot to sacrifice for their sins? Yet we are told in Hebrews the blood of Bulls and goats never took away sin. And you want us to believe that now. we come to a priest, with no sacrifice, and do some penance and that is required for sin removal? Where is Christ?

I can go on and on.

History does help me. It shows me what the demands of the law were. They were so sever. that according to the law. you had to be perfect. if you stumbled just one time, you were guilty of the law. Then I can also show what according to the law one had to do when they did sin. all those works, all those what you would call sacraments. and it did not help one person get saved, or cause the removal of sin from one person.

And here we today have new laws. Which are not near as strict as the OT law, being taught by numerous churches as being required to accomplish if you want to be saved? Then these people are claiming they are not trying to work to earn salvation?

History shows Satan took the Law given by God and distorted it so bad that when the messiah came, they rejected him.

And he did the very same thing to the church of the NT, and we can see clearly the same error and mistakes made by the Jews.. and what is most sad. is these people also would reject Christ. But they do not see it..

BNR32FAN · Dec 26, 2024

boughtwithaprice said:
We recall this teaching from the prophet Ezekiel

21 But if the wicked do penance for all his sins which he hath committed, and keep all my commandments, and do judgment, and justice, living he shall live, and shall not die. 22 I will not remember all his iniquities that he hath done: in his justice which he hath wrought, he shall live. 23 Is it my will that a sinner should die, saith the Lord God, and not that he should be converted from his ways, and live? 24 But if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all the abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live? all his justices which he hath done, shall not be remembered: in the prevarication, by which he hath prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die. 25 And you have said: The way of the Lord is not right. Hear ye, therefore, O house of Israel: Is it my way that is not right, and are not rather your ways perverse?

26 For when the just turneth himself away from his justice, and committeth iniquity, he shall die therein: in the injustice that he hath wrought he shall die. 27 And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he hath wrought, and doeth judgment, and justice: he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth and turneth away himself from all his iniquities which he hath wrought, he shall surely live, and not die. 29 And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse? 30 Therefore will I judge every man according to his ways, O house of Israel, saith the Lord God. Be converted, and do penance for all your iniquities: and iniquity shall not be your ruin.

As Catholics, we are often accused of earning our salvation by works, but that is not true.
We teach what the Gospel teaches in the words of Our Lord, if any man follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and begin to follow in my footsteps.
Jesus Himself says to store up treasures in heaven for ourselves. We do that by good works in following His commands and mortifying our flesh.

Do those works save us? Not according to Ezekiel. The works are already performed, past tense. If we were an employee, a wage would be owed. We are not employees, yet followers. If we follow and obey, we look forward to our reward in heaven. Our flesh is weak, as we deny ourselves, God gives us the grace to build virtue.

We can destroy that relationship by turning from righteousness and committing mortal sin. God says He will remember our righteous works no more and we will die in our sins. The works we have done cannot save us.

Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. We have blessed assurance as we continue in the path of righteousness. We continue that path by faith. To act sinfully would be to act contrary to faith. God redeems sinners, He does not redeem or wink at sin.

You may say, Ezekiel is Old Testament, but Hebrews reflects the same teaching

36 For patience is necessary for you; that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 For yet a little and a very little while, and he that is to come, will come, and will not delay. 38 But my just man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul. 39 But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul.

By this reasoning, faith is doing and continuing in good works, which is Catholic teaching according to scripture. It is a breach of faith to cease in well doing and withdraw unto perdition.

Simple works of faith are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. These works can only be done in faith, as a natural man would view them as absurd. Do not let Satan keep you from doing good works of faith

I would quote Matthew 7:21-27

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Doing good works isn’t about earning salvation, it’s just what people do when they abide in Christ.

BNR32FAN · Dec 26, 2024

boughtwithaprice said:
The whole thing comes down to one fact.
Do you believe that the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Jesus or not?

Do you deny that Jesus is come in the flesh? Is His presence dependent on the imaginations of men? The Apostle John says in his epistle that thinking is not of God. Is that not what you say?

Rome fell in 476AD. The Catholic Church does not rule by the power of Rome, but by the Holy Spirit that empowered the Apostles on Pentecost.
There is no history of Protestant thought prior to 1507. Have you read the Apostolic teaching?

If not, that is irresponsible of you and a disservice to those that would take your advice. If you are denying Our Lord in the Eucharist and are wrong, you do know that you are speaking against God Himself, right?
It would be better for you if you had more historical evidence rather than your own bold claims on how to interpret the Bible. Otherwise that is some shaky ground on which you stand.

It doesn’t matter what you think of me, as I know I am but a worm in the presence of the Almighty God, you will have an easy time attacking my flesh. If you want to preach in the name of Jesus, by your own interpretation of the Bible (whom Paul preaches), then you must be ready to answer the question, “Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?”
Always be ready to give an answer to anyone that asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. If it is your own understanding then that position is anti biblical because God’s word says lean not to your own understanding, but you do.
Why is that?

Study history and the Apostolic teaching, then get back to me. Your statements so far do not indicate that you have knowledge in that area

History shows that there have always been heresies taught in the early church. You had Oregon teaching universalism, then you had Doecitism, half of the church were teaching Arianism, then we had Nestorianism, then Pelagianism, then Augustine teaching 4 points of Calvinism. If you really study the teachings of the early church you’ll actually see heresies taught throughout the entire history of the church. That’s why there were so many synods and ecumenical councils. They didn’t hold these meetings because one person taught something in the church, they held them because large groups of people in the church were teaching them, most of which were holding high positions in the church. Jesus’ words in John 6 can’t be taken literally otherwise Judas would be saved because he received the Eucharist from Christ Himself. Furthermore Jesus gave the same analogy in John 4 to the Samaritan woman at the well with the living waters. John 6 is the same message using a different analogy.

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
I would quote Matthew 7:21-27

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Doing good works isn’t about earning salvation, it’s just what people do when they abide in Christ.

I do not think it is the work that is question, I think it is the motivation.

Matt 7 is a great passage. these people standing in front of God are talking about their works. We should ask, why are they promoting their works in front of Jesus? When I stand in front of God. I am going to be on my knees thanking God for saving me, not promoting my works.

And what did Jesus say, Depart from me for never knew you

This is important.

1. these people claimed to know God
2. These people did works of God (in their minds)
3. God never knew them
4. They practiced unrighteousness (a characteristic of the lost. not the saved, as john said, whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God)\

so were these people not doing these works with an attitude of these works will save me?

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
History shows that there have always been heresies taught in the early church. You had Oregon teaching universalism, then you had Doecitism, half of the church were teaching Arianism, then we had Nestorianism, then Pelagianism, then Augustine teaching 4 points of Calvinism. If you really study the teachings of the early church you’ll actually see heresies taught throughout the entire history of the church. That’s why there were so many synods and ecumenical councils. They didn’t hold these meetings because one person taught something in the church, they held them because large groups of people in the church were teaching them, most of which were holding high positions in the church. Jesus’ words in John 6 can’t be taken literally otherwise Judas would be saved because he received the Eucharist from Christ Himself. Furthermore Jesus gave the same analogy in John 4 to the Samaritan woman at the well with the living waters. John 6 is the same message using a different analogy.

we can see it in paul's letters. and john's letters. also.

there were heresies in the church from its inception.

its really no different than when Moses was given the law. Immediately there were false prophets and teachers who deceived many.

BNR32FAN · Dec 26, 2024

Eternally Grateful said:
I do not think it is the work that is question, I think it is the motivation.

Matt 7 is a great passage. these people standing in front of God are talking about their works. We should ask, why are they promoting their works in front of Jesus? When I stand in front of God. I am going to be on my knees thanking God for saving me, not promoting my works.

And what did Jesus say, Depart from me for never knew you

This is important.

1. these people claimed to know God
2. These people did works of God (in their minds)
3. God never knew them
4. They practiced unrighteousness (a characteristic of the lost. not the saved, as john said, whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God)\

so were these people not doing these works with an attitude of these works will save me?

I 100% agree. I believe it is the motivation behind our works that is taken into consideration, not the actual works themselves. Notice Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 13

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing, and if I give all that I have, even my very body but I don’t have love it profits me nothing. In other words no matter how much faith in Christ you have, if you don’t have love it means nothing and no matter how many good deeds you’ve done, if they weren’t done in love for God and others they also mean nothing.

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
I 100% agree. I believe it is the motivation behind our works that is taken into consideration, not the actual works themselves. Notice Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 13

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing, and if I give all that I have, even my very body but I don’t have love it profits me nothing. In other words no matter how much faith in Christ you have, if you don’t have love it means nothing and no matter how many good deeds you’ve done, if they weren’t done in love for God and others they also mean nothing.

I see it this way

what motivates me to get baptized?

1. That I want to Obey God and out of gratitude for him and love of what he gave me, I do it (i also want to share my faith with those around me)
2. I do it because I believe it is a means of being saved. that if I do not do it. I will not be saved. That it is the means of my sins bwing washed away.

Both people are doing the same work. But you see the one is outward focused (on God)

the other person is inward focused - They are taking focus off God and putting it on themselves and the act they are doing.

You could also say the one is doing it as an act of love

the second is doing it as an act of merit

Aaron112 · Dec 26, 2024

Eternally Grateful said:
what motivates me to get baptized?

Reading the New Testament accounts,

the listeners - the crowds if you will - were told to repent and be immersed in Yeshua's Name for the forgiveness of their sins. Before they were immersed, THEY CONFESSED THEIR SINS OPENLY
I think.
Confession of sins openly , in assembly?, is instructed in the New Testament (is it in the Torah/OT) ?

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

Aaron112 said:
Reading the New Testament accounts,

the listeners - the crowds if you will - were told to repent and be immersed in Yeshua's Name for the forgiveness of their sins. Before they were immersed, THEY CONFESSED THEIR SINS OPENLY
I think.
Confession of sins openly , in assembly?, is instructed in the New Testament (is it in the Torah/OT) ?

But they were not told that, The only place you can really even think it says that is in acts 2 in a horrifically mistranslated passage, and in mark in a passage that first off is questionable that it is even scripture. and second, one must assume water baptism is in context. even though in peters day. baptism by its defenition meant to be immersed and did not always mean in water

They were told repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand, whoever believes will be saved. in most of the new testament..

and The people in acts 2 did not confess their sins openly.

so there are two issues with what you are saying here

Eternally Grateful · Dec 26, 2024

Aaron112 said:
Reading the New Testament accounts,

the listeners - the crowds if you will - were told to repent and be immersed in Yeshua's Name for the forgiveness of their sins. Before they were immersed, THEY CONFESSED THEIR SINS OPENLY
I think.
Confession of sins openly , in assembly?, is instructed in the New Testament (is it in the Torah/OT) ?

PS. I gave you two motivations.

and shared what they both represent, do you agree or disagree?

Aaron112 · Dec 26, 2024

Eternally Grateful said:
acts 2

"According to Acts 2:38, the act of "openly confessing sins" before immersion is implied through the instruction to "repent," which means to turn away from sin and acknowledge one's wrongdoings, before being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins;

essentially, a public declaration of repentance is expected before immersion in water as a symbol of accepting Jesus as Savior."

Aaron112 · Dec 26, 2024

Eternally Grateful said:
PS. I gave you two motivations.

and shared what they both represent, do you agree or disagree?

p.p.s. I do not remember. If God Permits, I'll check, or you can repost them if you want to,.......

BNR32FAN · Dec 26, 2024

Eternally Grateful said:
I see it this way

what motivates me to get baptized?

1. That I want to Obey God and out of gratitude for him and love of what he gave me, I do it (i also want to share my faith with those around me)
2. I do it because I believe it is a means of being saved. that if I do not do it. I will not be saved. That it is the means of my sins bwing washed away.

Both people are doing the same work. But you see the one is outward focused (on God)

the other person is inward focused - They are taking focus off God and putting it on themselves and the act they are doing.

You could also say the one is doing it as an act of love

the second is doing it as an act of merit

Some people get baptized because of peer pressure. I was baptized as a child, not because I wanted to or knew anything about Christ, but because I didn’t have a choice in the matter

A Scriptural perspective on faith and works

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