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A Saudi Converts to Christianity

Barney2.0

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God bless him and keep him safe. Although I do find it weird that native Saudi converts and most Muslim converts to Christianity seem to always get affiliated with evangelical Churches upon conversion to Christianity instead of converting to traditional Christianity such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
 

tampasteve

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although I do find it weird that native Saudi converts and most Muslim converts to Christianity seem to always get affiliated with evangelical Churches upon conversion to Christianity instead of converting to traditional Christianity such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

They are, for the most part, doing the most missionizing. Also, in general "converting" to Evangelical Christianity is fairly quick and simple, there is not a long cathechism or process like there might be in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, as well as some forms of Protestantism.
 
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Barney2.0

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They are, for the most part, doing the most missionizing. Also, in general "converting" to Evangelical Christianity is fairly quick and simple, there is not a long cathechism or process like there might be in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, as well as some forms of Protestantism.
To me it makes more sense that conversion is a working process, rather then a direct baptism. I can’t imagine the Church as a mere metaphorical thing as in Evangelicalism. Most Muslim converts I believe have an issue with iconography being used in worship, Evangelicalism doesn’t have that with it so I think most are generally comfortable converting to it. Most Christian I’ve met and interacted with in Saudi doing evangelization were Evangelical Christians, many didn’t approve of my “wrong version” of Christianity.
 
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dzheremi

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May God bless him and keep him safe.

With all due respect to anyone of that belief, we cannot underestimate that along with the reasons already given here there is the fact that Evangelical Protestantism is simply easier. If Ramadan was hard for you to do for a month even though all of society was designed to help you (i.e., no eating in public during this time; businesses shutting down; etc.), you're not going to want to do the even harder Orthodox fasting for half the year (EO) or more than half the year (OO). If praying for five times a day was hard for you, you're not going to want to pray seven times a day. So I imagine when you are presented with a kind of Christianity that not only doesn't have those things, but also has other things like "Once Saved Always Saved", "Bible Only" (this epistemology could be seen as superficially similar to the Muslim attachment to the Qur'an, even though "Qur'an Only" Muslims are seen as heretics by the majority), etc. that make believing as easy as possible, this is much more attractive than these other, more traditional forms of Christianity.

Also, many Evangelical preachers tell the people what they want to hear. Listen to what HH Pope Shenouda III says about that approach:


"If he preached other words, they would leave, and his meeting would vanish." It's true. He may have said it in a slightly different context here, but it is true, and I think the Evangelicals know it, because it works the same here in the West: preach something easy and 'uplifting', even if there is very little or no foundation to it, and your church will likely have many people in it. They will have shallow faith, but it will have many people in it. Probably they will not be the same people five to seven years from now (I have read from atheist researchers that this is about how long it is before the feeling of being 'born again' in an Evangelical context wears off; I don't know how true that is), but there will always be somebody looking to feel better.

I hope that this brave man will use his time in Christianity wisely, and study not only the Holy Bible but the entire world of early Christianity that produced the Bible, and come to a deeper faith in and a greater love and knowledge of Christ.
 
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Barney2.0

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May God bless him and keep him safe.

With all due respect to anyone of that belief, we cannot underestimate that along with the reasons already given here there is the fact that Evangelical Protestantism is simply easier. If Ramadan was hard for you to do for a month even though all of society was designed to help you (i.e., no eating in public during this time; businesses shutting down; etc.), you're not going to want to do the even harder Orthodox fasting for half the year (EO) or more than half the year (OO). If praying for five times a day was hard for you, you're not going to want to pray seven times a day. So I imagine when you are presented with a kind of Christianity that not only doesn't have those things, but also has other things like "Once Saved Always Saved", "Bible Only" (this epistemology could be seen as superficially similar to the Muslim attachment to the Qur'an, even though "Qur'an Only" Muslims are seen as heretics by the majority), etc. that make believing as easy as possible, this is much more attractive than these other, more traditional forms of Christianity.

Also, many Evangelical preachers tell the people what they want to hear. Listen to what HH Pope Shenouda III says about that approach:


"If he preached other words, they would leave, and his meeting would vanish." It's true. He may have said it in a slightly different context here, but it is true, and I think the Evangelicals know it, because it works the same here in the West: preach something easy and 'uplifting', even if there is very little or no foundation to it, and your church will likely have many people in it. They will have shallow faith, but it will have many people in it. Probably they will not be the same people five to seven years from now (I have read from atheist researchers that this is about how long it is before the feeling of being 'born again' in an Evangelical context wears off; I don't know how true that is), but there will always be somebody looking to feel better.

I hope that this brave man will use his time in Christianity wisely, and study not only the Holy Bible but the entire world of early Christianity that produced the Bible, and come to a deeper faith in and a greater love and knowledge of Christ.
For me it was quite the opposite, I found Islam to be verse easy in comparison to traditional Christianity, for me I wanted a harder not an easier religion. As the truth stands clear form falsehood. So in my logic the truth had to be demanding of me so Evangelicalism never stuck with me, it isn’t organized. I usually give apologetics and inform conservative Muslims usually Salafis about Christianity. Salafis and conservative Muslims usually view Christianity as corrupt, easy, a religion of the world, you only need to pray on Sunday’s, you get to drink wine, have sex out of marriage (yes many Muslims I’ve met actually do believe Christianity allows that), eat pork, and so on. When I informed some of them how hard it is to fast in Christianity and how many times Orthodox Christians pray and worship and how we are taught to avoid sin, and our doctrines, many of them replied by saying your faith is to hard and asks to much of you. Conservative Muslims who are usually my audience are usually impressed by how strict Orthodoxy is. That is my main problem with evangelicals (not all of them of course), they disregard everything except the Bible, one of them even told me once why do you waste time reading the Church Fathers just read the Bible, once I mentioned Saint Peter and I remembered his reply was that I don’t care about any Saints. He came from a Roman Catholic background, but it seems most evangelicals coming from Catholic backgrounds seem to be like this. For me even one true believer is worth more then a 1,000 ones who only have a shallow and emotional understanding of their faith. I loved Pope Shenouda’s last statement Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy. That’s something all Christians should uphold no matter which denomination or doctrinal viewpoint you hold to.

Also Dzheremi I posted a new thread on the Oriental Orthodox forum your answer to it would be most helpful, thanks.
 
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dzheremi

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Oh, certainly...I would imagine that Islam is way easier than traditional Christianity, but probably much more rigorous than Evangelical Protestantism.

And I'll go look at your thread now, though I can't promise I can answer it. :)
 
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Albion

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They are, for the most part, doing the most missionizing. Also, in general "converting" to Evangelical Christianity is fairly quick and simple, there is not a long cathechism or process like there might be in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, as well as some forms of Protestantism.
It's also far more comprehensible. Islam already has bunches of "do this, don't do that" rules, so Christianity, Catholic-style, probably seems like switching Jesus from prophet to Son of God while not changing much else.

Evangelical Protestantism by contrast is a much different approach to salvation: faith and trust in one who has done for humans what they cannot do--or cannot do correctly--on their own!
 
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dzheremi

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Evangelical Protestantism by contrast is a much different approach to salvation: faith and trust in one who has done for humans what they cannot do--or cannot do correctly--on their own!

Not sure what your experience of Catholicism has been like, but I remember this being a fairly constant message when I was in the RCC. (And it is even more explicit in Orthodoxy.)
 
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Albion

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Not sure what your experience of Catholicism has been like, but I remember this being a fairly constant message when I was in the RCC. (And it is even more explicit in Orthodoxy.)
Of course I don't know what your own experience amounted to. Maybe in recent years, now that many Catholic teachings are changing and the explanations given are being changed even more, the difference may seem blurred somewhat, but the description of the two opposing sides is accurate.

So I am guessing that this may account for the phenomenon we were told about in the OP, just like everyone else has his own guess.
 
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dzheremi

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Of course I don't know what your own experience amounted to. Maybe in recent years, now that many Catholic teachings are changing and the explanations given are being changed even more, the difference may seem blurred somewhat

I couldn't say. I left the RCC a decade ago and don't look back.

but the description of the two opposing sides is accurate.

I highly doubt that the complaints of western Protestants against the RCC are really all that relevant to Middle Eastern converts to Christianity. In his book The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross, Syrian Protestant author Nabeel T. Jabbour says that when he was in Egypt and he fasted during Ramadan to show solidarity with local Muslims, they were confused and asked him "Why are you fasting when you are Christian? Is this the Orthodox fast?" (i.e., a period of fasting in the Coptic Orthodox Church that they are unaware of; he then explained that, no, he is Protestant so such things do not apply to him, etc.)

Is it not much more likely that they then know the kinds of Christianity that are local to them best, and hence consider them first (and these may not have the same hang-ups as Protestants against the RCC specifically), and hence a Saudi may consider Protestantism if most of the Christians he knows or comes into contact with are Protestant? I have no doubt that concerns about praxis and ecclesiology and so on are in there eventually, but to present them as though the conversions are a rejection of RCism in particular is a little bit ridiculous. The Protestants quite simply get to them first (particularly if the convert is in a majority Protestant country; I notice what appears to be a British flag in the man's Twitter, so I assume he is in the UK).

Apparently we had a Saudi woman convert to Orthodoxy in our church of St. Bishoy back in New Mexico shortly after I left it (almost five years ago now). I didn't get a chance to meet her, obviously, but everyone tells me that she is lovely and very committed to Christ and to the faith. I have no idea how she got there (it was just her; she didn't marry a Coptic guy after coming to the West or whatever), but to me it makes sense because we often had visitors from the other Middle Eastern countries who were interested in our church, even though they had their own. We had two Catholics from Jordan who attended our liturgies consistently for the better part of a year before moving out of the area. Someone asked them why they came to our liturgies so much, and they said it was the "most eastern" that was available in the city. I don't know what that means, but I know what it doesn't mean, since they never voiced any specific grievance against the RC way of doing things. (And that makes sense, right? The Coptic Orthodox Church is far more liturgically conservative and elaborate than the Roman Catholic, so they probably wanted as much of that to antiquity and physicality in worship as they could get in Albuquerque. "Smells and bells" are a good thing to many.)

So I am guessing that this may account for the phenomenon we were told about in the OP, just like everyone else has his own guess.

Maybe, but I have reason to think that's overly simplistic and importing problems/objections that aren't there organically. I also worshiped with, in addition to Egyptians (obviously), Iraqis, Sudanese, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Mexicans, Jews (one of the local Copts had married a Jewish woman, but still came to liturgy when HG Bishop Youssef was celebrating it), etc., and none of them but the Mexican ever said that the RCC factored into anything they do, or was anything that they even thought about. In fact, if anything, according to my Ethiopian friend Helen, it was a good thing to have been formerly Catholic before converting to Orthodoxy, because you likely wouldn't have the problems with intercessory prayer, venerating the Theotokos, etc. that Protestants often have (not all of them, of course, but many). My memory is a bit fuzzy by now but I believe her words (after finding out that I was Roman Catholic, as I still technically was at the time) were something like "I thought you were Orthodox already, because you did everything just as we do it, and you didn't hesitate to kiss the priest's cross and the icons." (And there is reason for this that is unrelated to the RCC or its practices: the RC way of making the sign of the cross, for example -- while it is a evolution away from how they used to do it according to some of their own sources -- has for several centuries now matched the way the OO have always done it: left-to-right, not right-to-left as the other Chalcedonians still do it, though the explanation as to why it is done that way is different in the OO case than in the case of the modern RCC.)

So I don't know that the average Middle Eastern person, simply looking to join Christianity out of their love for Jesus Christ and desire to follow Him as the Word of God, the Only-Begotten Son of the Father, necessarily pays all that much attention to the kinds of issues you have raised. I don't know a 'nice' way to say this, but I think that the level theological education concerning Christianity among many converts matches better with the level of theological education of the Protestant missionaries than it does with the indigenous Christians who have 2,000 years of Christian history to impart to any who come seriously wishing to join the Church. After my first liturgy, Abouna Marcos sat me down and gave me a quick lesson covering about 2,000 years of Coptic history in about a half an hour. I could see that being very intimidating and off-putting to some people, and it could very easily prove too big a stumbling block if you'd first been exposed to Protestantism, which doesn't have 2,000 years of anything, doesn't have this, doesn't have that, etc. I know which one I would choose, if I were in such a situation. It is very easy to tell someone "Here's a Bible; read it; everything is in there", assuming they can read and want to read it. It is much more difficult to say "Yes, read the Bible, and also read the Agpeya, the Synaxarium, the Desert Fathers, the Acts of the Three (or Seven, or whatever) Ecumenical Councils, the works of St. Athanasius the Apostolic, St. Cyril the Pillar of Faith, etc."

The Muslims are used to one book having the answer to absolutely everything (even if they they can't actually understand it and must rely on interpretations given to them in their particular Islamic tradition), and no central theological authority, and many other things that are in concert with certain forms of Protestantism. It seems much more likely that they latch on to these similarities rather than explicitly rejecting other churches which we have no reason to think they ever had the chance to seriously consider, due to a lack of exposure to them.
 
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dzheremi

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Thank you, Tampa Steve, for the reminder. To be perfectly honest, I had not checked the forum this was posted in before initially replying. I will now withdraw from the thread.

Again, may the Lord protect this new Christian, and plant him strongly in the faith of Christ and His holy and honored apostles. As the holy and venerable St. Paul preached in Arabia, may the faith continue to grow there. Today in the diaspora, tomorrow once again in Jubail. ♰
 
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Albion

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I highly doubt that the complaints of western Protestants against the RCC are really all that relevant to Middle Eastern converts to Christianity.
That could be. I didn't say anything about Saudis being influenced by Protestant complaints against the RCC, however.
 
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Barney2.0

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Thank you, Tampa Steve, for the reminder. To be perfectly honest, I had not checked the forum this was posted in before initially replying. I will now withdraw from the thread.

Again, may the Lord protect this new Christian, and plant him strongly in the faith of Christ and His holy and honored apostles. As the holy and venerable St. Paul preached in Arabia, may the faith continue to grow there. Today in the diaspora, tomorrow once again in Jubail. ♰
I dream of Saudi and one day having its own native Christian population. I managed to learn Christian theology in a span of around two years, my evangelical friend from India some times asks me to teach him theology. Being of Levantine origins also made me feel Orthodoxy to be home, the Lebanese-Syrian branch of my family has Melkite origins, while the Iraqi side goes back to the Banu Taghlib tribe which followed the Syriac Orthodox faith before converting to Islam. Islam never stuck with me, I was practically agnostic for most of my life being only nominally Muslim under law, so when I technically converted to Christianity I did it from a pagan background, as I was a neo-pagan before converting to Christianity, one of the things I used to hate about Islam when I was young was its iconoclasm, worship felt so dead, that’s when I ever attended Islamic worship events or prayers, which was extremely rare since I used to hate it when I was young. So kissing icons and venerating them along with saints seemed normal to me, to me I found evangelical Protestantism’s iconoclasm and rejection of the veneration of Saints and the Theotokos to be to similar to Islam, which was why it never really stuck with me.
 
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God bless him and keep him safe. Although I do find it weird that native Saudi converts and most Muslim converts to Christianity seem to always get affiliated with evangelical Churches upon conversion to Christianity instead of converting to traditional Christianity such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy.
Perhaps Protestant positions make more sense to them. Perhaps those positions draw them more profoundly to the grace offered by Christ. Perhaps not having the same historical baggage helps.
 
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