A rock so heavy God can't lift it...

[david_x]

Merely because I use words you don't understand only makes it incoherent to you, seems to me. I don't think my sentence structure is much worse than other posters. And English is my first language, though I don't brag about it.

Forgive me if I don't fit into your worldview of strict Western logical coherence.

I would be inclined to agree if you actually used words...(i.e. unpossibilty, nonpossibility).

The incoherences spring mostly from the fact that you never actually address what I am saying positively or negatively.

So, let me ask you the simplified question. Do you think that it is absurd (against reason, without reason) for God to make a rock so big He can not move it?

 

[ToHoldNothing]

So, let me ask you the simplified question. Do you think that it is absurd (against reason, without reason) for God to make a rock so big He can not move it?

It all depends on the definition of omnipotence, methinks. But commonly it is understood as having virtual capacity to do anything that doesn't imply a contradiction, so one could conclude this is absurd. But there would be those that contend otherwise about omnipotence, so the OP's question, if I remember it at all, still seems to hold water unless we can invalidate those other conceptions of omnipotence

 

[david_x]

It all depends on the definition of omnipotence, methinks. But commonly it is understood as having virtual capacity to do anything that doesn't imply a contradiction, so one could conclude this is absurd. But there would be those that contend otherwise about omnipotence, so the OP's question, if I remember it at all, still seems to hold water unless we can invalidate those other conceptions of omnipotence

Does not have anything to do with omnipotence...

 

[sandwiches]

your response to me is actually me interjecting in the hope of clarifying someone else's position. my position may differ from his. i don't know enough about it to say, but tried to help by placing an emphasis on the term "our reality". so it may or may not change the question, if directed at him.

my position is that if logic is an intrinsic quality of god, not a creation itself, it may be said that creation is imbued with that quality, but that it is possible that there is a higher logic operating within god than in his creation.

Anything is possible but my point is that if God is limited even within his own qualities or properties, then he's like any other entity that exists and is just the most powerful one but not omnipotent.

 

[callmeMurph]

Can God do something that He cannot do?

 

[Upisoft]

Can God do something that He cannot do?

Yes, God either do not exist (which is impossible for Him) or He is mis-communicating His existence (also not possible for Him).

 

[Seamus Riley]

Anything is possible but my point is that if God is limited even within his own qualities or properties, then he's like any other entity that exists and is just the most powerful one but not omnipotent.

we both know the absurdity of the question and its originally intended purpose, given that absurdity. av turned it around in the apple thread and caught hell for it. i could ask "could a wholly natural universe think itself out of existence?" but i keep entertaining the thread cuz i like talking to you guys and enjoy the iron against iron sharpening of the intellect. at some point, everyone has to move on (not saying i am right now).

haven't we defined what a square is? we outlined its parameters. asking if god can make a square circle is us limiting god according to our own limitations. i think first we must define god. the bible says we cannot, and we have yet to prove this wrong.

 

[Seamus Riley]

Yes, God either do not exist (which is impossible for Him) or He is mis-communicating His existence (also not possible for Him).

isn't it intellectually dismissive to assume that if we haven't understood that god has miscommunicated?

 

[Upisoft]

isn't it intellectually dismissive to assume that if we haven't understood that god has miscommunicated?

That's part of it. After all the assumption is that we were created by God. Say if I create a program that does not communicate correctly with me, who is to blame? My boss surely will not like the explanation it was program's fault.

 

[Seamus Riley]

That's part of it. After all the assumption is that we were created by God. Say if I create a program that does not communicate correctly with me, who is to blame? My boss surely will not like the explanation it was program's fault.

but you are changing the goal posts here. your program doesn't have intelligence that would interfere with itself. it is even further removed when you define it as software with a specific purpose that simply isn't doing its job.

 

[sandwiches]

but you are changing the goal posts here. your program doesn't have intelligence that would interfere with itself. it is even further removed when you define it as software with a specific purpose that simply isn't doing its job.

If God created us with the possibility (or with the tendency, as millions of people are evidence of) of misunderstanding him, who's to blame?

 

[SonOfTheWest]

If God created us with the possibility (or with the tendency, as millions of people are evidence of) of misunderstanding him, who's to blame?

Considering the idea of omniscience, well we know the answer. But I have this argument so much with other Christians I've grown insanely tired of it.

 

[Seamus Riley]

If God created us with the possibility (or with the tendency, as millions of people are evidence of) of misunderstanding him, who's to blame?

god created man perfectly, with no possibility of misunderstanding him. the tendency, which i'll one up you on and say every one of us has, was incurred by being born into sin. i don't view the gift of free will as a design flaw in an otherwise perfect being since it is more a tool and what we use it for that is right or wrong, like how we blame the driver and not the car for running someone over.

 

[bricklayer]

God can do anything that can be done, but God cannot do anything.

God cannot change.

God cannot do anything that can be said.

God cannot change.

 

[sandwiches]

god created man perfectly, with no possibility of misunderstanding him. the tendency, which i'll one up you on and say every one of us has, was incurred by being born into sin. i don't view the gift of free will as a design flaw in an otherwise perfect being since it is more a tool and what we use it for that is right or wrong, like how we blame the driver and not the car for running someone over.

Bad analogy. We do blame the car manufacturer if his tool causes deaths or other problems. Besides the car manufacturer is not going to send us to hell if his car crashes.

None of that changes the fact that it's BECAUSE of him that we can and do make the wrong decision. He knows the vast majority of humans would not know about him and those who do would misunderstand him and choose incorrectly. So he knew that almost all humans would end up in hell.

The free will cop out doesn't fly here when he's essentially a negligent father. Would you say it's OK if a father gives a child a sharp knife? After all, the knife is just a tool and it can be used for right or wrong. "But we're not children, we're adults." We're children in the amount of knowledge, experience, and wisdom compared to god. He knows much more than we'll ever do and he knows when we're in danger of suffering or of ending up in hell, yet he stands back and lets us suffer and doom ourselves for all eternity. That's just evil. Now, I'm sure you'll have plenty of justifications but the truth is this is the only situation where we'd have make up excuses for a caretaker or guardian not taking proper care of his ward.

 

[Seamus Riley]

neither does misuse of a sharp knife send anyone to hell...that's taking a simple analogy too far. you could have gone further to pick apart the car analogy if you like, but wouldn't that just be muddying the issue so we can avoid the actual issue?

so, we do give small children sharp knives. my brother was a cub scout. but we instruct them on its use. god has instructed and leaves it to us to continue to instruct our own children.

god has enabled us to make the choice, so it cannot not be said we didn't have a choice to begin with. it befalls us whether we choose him or not, good or evil, etc. it is not the fault of the giver if the gift is used for wrong.

am i really just using justifications or am i speaking truth?

do you really think he is standing back because there isn't enough evidence to your satisfaction?

 

[Tiberius]

God can do anything that can be done, but God cannot do anything.

God cannot change.

God cannot do anything that can be said.

God cannot change.

And how do you determine if something can be done?

Is it that something can be done if it can be done without God's involvement? Or are there things that God can do which can only be done by God?

And if that is the case, how do you know that creating a rock so heavy God can't lift it (but he lifts it anyway) doesn't fall into that category?

 

[sandwiches]

neither does misuse of a sharp knife send anyone to hell...that's taking a simple analogy too far. you could have gone further to pick apart the car analogy if you like, but wouldn't that just be muddying the issue so we can avoid the actual issue?

so, we do give small children sharp knives. my brother was a cub scout. but we instruct them on its use. god has instructed and leaves it to us to continue to instruct our own children.

god has enabled us to make the choice, so it cannot not be said we didn't have a choice to begin with. it befalls us whether we choose him or not, good or evil, etc. it is not the fault of the giver if the gift is used for wrong.

Good to know you'd blame a child and not the parents if he was given a knife by them and he stabbed another child. Oh wait... no you wouldn't. No sane person would.

am i really just using justifications or am i speaking truth?

Justifications.

do you really think he is standing back because there isn't enough evidence to your satisfaction?

What?

 

[Seamus Riley]

Good to know you'd blame a child and not the parents if he was given a knife by them and he stabbed another child. Oh wait... no you wouldn't. No sane person would.

no true scotsman would either, eh? a child intent on harming another child will find one way or other to do so. give an evil man religious leadership, political power or military might and he will oppress others with any of them. but we try to keep evil men from possessing these things or remove them when they acquire them anyway.

but anyway, the knife isn't free will. free will supposes the child could just as easily have given the other kid a cookie instead of a stabbing.

What?

you said god is just standing back while we doom ourselves to hell. i ask, is he?

 

[sandwiches]

no true scotsman would either, eh? a child intent on harming another child will find one way or other to do so. give an evil man religious leadership, political power or military might and he will oppress others with any of them. but we try to keep evil men from possessing these things or remove them when they acquire them anyway.

but anyway, the knife isn't free will. free will supposes the child could just as easily have given the other kid a cookie instead of a stabbing.

So, do you believe that a child should be held responsible and not the parents if he kills someone with a weapon the parents gave him?

you said god is just standing back while we doom ourselves to hell. i ask, is he?

Well, if Christian doctrine is true, millions of people are already in hell and many more millions will end up there; so, yes.