A Rhetorical Question for Synergists

[Hammster]

Well, they tend to believe they are born again first and they then repent and believe.

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."


According to this, regeneration is necessary.

 

[guuila]

In your system, God plays the lottery tossing the cosmic dice and just hopes he gets lucky enough that some folks will cooperate with his salvation plan. In biblical Christianity, however, God works all things according to the counsel of his own will and is the happiest being in the universe, never having any plan of his thwarted by a sinful human being.

 

[Skala]

In your view, God gambles with the human race. He creates them, then hopes and prays at least some of them will be smart enough to accept the gospel.

Heck, the whole race might of ended up in hell! Good thing God got lucky that some were wise enough to cooperate.

 

[guuila]

If I am drowning, a Rescuer jumps in to save me, and I trust Him and do not resist, I received His salvation by ______________?

We don't hate lifeguards by nature.

If I am dying of disease, a Doctor comes to save me with a hypodermic of the cure, and I trust Him and do not resist, I received His salvation by ___________?

We don't hate doctors by nature. I love how synergists try to represent the sinner as a helpless, innocent victim in their analogies instead of the God-hating criminal he truly is.

 

[Skala]

Originally Posted by NorrinRadd

If I am drowning, a Rescuer jumps in to save me, and I trust Him and do not resist, I received His salvation by ______________?

If I am dying of disease, a Doctor comes to save me with a hypodermic of the cure, and I trust Him and do not resist, I received His salvation by ___________?

We don't hate lifeguards by nature.

We don't hate doctors by nature.

Yep. This is exactly the problem with many synergist arguments. They always use "analogies" where it's a neutral situation between the saved and the savior, where it's obvious that the person is in desperate need for help and would gladly accept any medicine/lifeguard's assistance. That is the only reason their analogies work. However they err in missing the boat completely on the biblical issue. Man (the saved) is completely hostile to God (the Savior). He is a sinner, a criminal, a rebel. This is the part they always conveniently leave out of their analogies. God must first change mans' heart or man will reject God's "offer" every single time.

That is why salvation is by grace.

 

[AndOne]

Yes the foreknowing comes from Romans 8:29 which tells us how He predestined. But you only see this through your understanding of election and cannot see Paul's conclusive explanation...in stead of reading it to its conclusion you interpret it apart from the conclusion and then try and make the conclusion fit...it says in whom you trusted AFTER you heard...in whom AFTER you believed you were sealed...any other "interpretation" is not translation and is eisegesis not exegesis...

Ah they retort, but that is not what it means, to which I say, but what does it say...but it is not what it means (says who) what does it say? It says AFTER you heard you trusted...AFTER you believed you were sealed...not the other way around as if those He sealed afterward trusted and believed

It also talks of our inheritence - which the Holy Spirit is the guaranteer of (vs 14). Regeneration, my friend - you need to unerstand how it works. We hear and believe first becase the Holy Spirit makes it possible. Verses 3-8 explain who He makes it possible for - the elect! So let's do it by the numbers:

1) Regeneration - Holy Spirit changes the hearts of the elect.
2) The elect hear and believe
3) The elect are sealed.

It is right there in plain language for all who are not taught your doctrine to understand. Strict Calvinism must be taught, it is never the simple, rational, conclusion one reaches simply by reading the scriptures...that should tell you something...that no early Christians indicate a belief in this doctrine for over 3 centuries should be another clue...and finally that most Christians today STILL do not "interpret" the Scriptures in this way should seal the deal...

Calvinism is dripping from the pages of scripture so this claim makes no sense to me.

The Militant Islamists all say no matter what one does, no matter how heinous and evil, they say "It was God's will"...IMO they attribute even the work of the devil to God and make Satan's will God's will (they will tell you Satan is God's puppet)...because God is the grand puppet master pulling every little string...determining every thought action and deed...God becomes the master of all the word says God hates...

Paul

What does this have to do with Calvinism? Nothing.

 

[AndOne]

Yes it does, but Calvinists do not.

Name me one prominent Calvinist who doesn't. YOU CAN'T!

 

[AndOne]

We have the Biblical question, "What must I do to be saved?" And plenty of scriptures that instruct concerning what is necessary along those lines. Therefore instruction by someone who knows is needful.

However we know that the first five books were written by Moses, not coming from another person but directly from God.
And each old testament prophecy came directly from God. Each of the new testament teachings of Jesus came directly from God. Each epistle revelation of a mystery that the apostle Paul had came directly from God.

So there's the combination of direct and indirect instruction from God. Each time that someone speaks of a direct instruction from God it must be compared to what the Bible already says on the subject.
Many false teachers and false religions have come up with things that have not come from God. That is the reason why doing things as the Bible states it is very important.

Your idea that God might want to give direct instruction to a sinner as to how to be saved is flawed.
Because the sinner knows very little about God. And is still too connected with the strong possibility of deception and therefore would be too easily mislead.
So God isn't going to want to give instruction to someone that is not first deeply knowledgeable in what he already said in the Bible. The question at the beginning 'what to do to be saved' came from Jewish men who knew the old testament law and the prophets writings. The apostle Peter told them about salvation through Jesus Christ. But they expressed their humility in asking the question, that is very important concerning receiving godly instruction.

Question- do you know what a synergist or monergist is? Please look them up and respond appropriately to the question. Thank you.

 

[travelah]

Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."


According to this, regeneration is necessary.

Yes, it is necessary to be born again to understand the spiritual things of God and to do those things that are pleasing to Him. Only those who have risen in newness of life can walk after the Spirit of God and live faithfully with a love of the LORD.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, it is necessary to be born again to understand the spiritual things of God and to do those things that are pleasing to Him. Only those who have risen in newness of life can walk after the Spirit of God and live faithfully with a love of the LORD.

And that would be monergism.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I think the rescuer and doctor are both paid professionals.

Kind of making an assumption, aren't you?

 

[gmm4j]

And that would be monergism.

And that would be synergism because you are not regenerated until you are first justified by faith in Christ. Otherwise, you have the living dead

 

[Hammster]

Kind of making an assumption, aren't you?

Yes. But since there's little to go on (and I'm not sure of the relevance), it seemed like a good assumption. Good as any, I suppose.

 

[Hammster]

And that would be synergism because you are not regenerated until you are first justified by faith in Christ. Otherwise, you have the living dead

What was in his comment that would lead you to your conclusion? It's possible I missed something, and if so, it would be beneficial if you pointed it out.

Thanks.

 

[NorrinRadd]

We don't hate lifeguards by nature.


We don't hate doctors by nature. I love how synergists try to represent the sinner as a helpless, innocent victim in their analogies instead of the God-hating criminal he truly is.

Originally Posted by NorrinRadd

Yep. This is exactly the problem with many synergist arguments. They always use "analogies" where it's a neutral situation between the saved and the savior, where it's obvious that the person is in desperate need for help and would gladly accept any medicine/lifeguard's assistance. That is the only reason their analogies work. However they err in missing the boat completely on the biblical issue. Man (the saved) is completely hostile to God (the Savior). He is a sinner, a criminal, a rebel. This is the part they always conveniently leave out of their analogies. God must first change mans' heart or man will reject God's "offer" every single time.

That is why salvation is by grace.

You don't realize that you monergists also distort the picture?

You talk about the unbeliever being a hostile criminal, which may be true. But Scripture *also* refers to him as "lost." That's rather "neutral," isn't it?

You refer to him being "dead" -- and often emphasize it by saying, "Dead means dead! He can't respond to God until God regenerates him." IOW he's totally inert. But then you turn around and say he's not REALLY totally inert, he's still able to sin and be hostile to God. So he's only as "totally" dead as you need him to be for your theology. Meanwhile, while Scripture does call him "dead," it also calls him "blinded." And in 1 Pet. 2, it refers to the unsaved state not as death but as a SICKNESS that can be "healed."

 

[Hammster]

You don't realize that you monergists also distort the picture?

This sounds like an admission that you've distorted the picture.

You talk about the unbeliever being a hostile criminal, which may be true. But Scripture *also* refers to him as "lost." That's rather "neutral," isn't it?

Did Jesus come to seek and save the lost? Is He failing?

You refer to him being "dead" -- and often emphasize it by saying, "Dead means dead! He can't respond to God until God regenerates him." IOW he's totally inert. But then you turn around and say he's not REALLY totally inert, he's still able to sin and be hostile to God. So he's only as "totally" dead as you need him to be for your theology. Meanwhile, while Scripture does call him "dead," it also calls him "blinded." And in 1 Pet. 2, it refers to the unsaved state not as death but as a SICKNESS that can be "healed."

Can you provide more of a reference for that? It's possible I missed what you're saying 1 Peter 2 says.

 

[Epoisses]

In your view, God gambles with the human race. He creates them, then hopes and prays at least some of them will be smart enough to accept the gospel.

Heck, the whole race might of ended up in hell! Good thing God got lucky that some were wise enough to cooperate.

Yes, that's actually close to what I believe but I don't think I would use the word gamble or hope and prays; God knows everything so hope is not part of his character.

Also, what you are forgetting is that righteousness is more powerful than sin. So even though sin may seem to have the upper hand in this world, it will ultimately be put down and never rise again.

 

[guuila]

Yes, that's actually close to what I believe but I don't think I would use the word gamble or hope and prays; God knows everything so hope is not part of his character.

I've never seen such honesty from a synergist.

 

[Skala]

Yes, that's actually close to what I believe

 

[Epoisses]

Almost as shocking as monergists providing an answer for a future judgment. What would be the purpose of God judging the lost who were made incapable of righteousness?

Any monergists brave enough to answer this? Let's put the spotlight on your doctrine and see how it violates nature, common sense and all forms of logic.