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A rejection of Predestination.........

j-boot

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If He knew everyone in the sense of simply "knowing beforehand" then we must also submit that He predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of His Son.
It also helps to keep in mind that the word "know" should be properly interpreted to have te same weight as in the phrase "and Adam knew his wife". Adam wasn't merely aware of Eve's existence, rather he had deep affection and connection with her. ;) So too, God foreKNEW us. A certain commentator (was it John MacArthur?) has said that in this contex, the verb should be more properly translated "foreloved".
 
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Reformationist

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j-boot said:
It also helps to keep in mind that the word "know" should be properly interpreted to have te same weight as in the phrase "and Adam knew his wife". Adam wasn't merely aware of Eve's existence, rather he had deep affection and connection with her. ;) So too, God foreKNEW us. A certain commentator (was it John MacArthur?) has said that in this contex, the verb should be more properly translated "foreloved".
That is exactly what the context means. Nicely said. Kind of puts verses like 1 John 4:19 into the proper perspective, don't you think? :)

God bless
 
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cygnusx1

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Follower of Christ said:
Hey cyggy :wave:

Im still undecided on all this.
I can see many of the predestination points in the text, but there is just enough there to argue your ''post-destination'' or something similar to it.

Im going to keep studying it. Im sure Ive read all the relevant scripture 100 times already, but it still seems to me, in my mind at least, that God merely foreknew us and our decision and therefore acted accordingly.

This is one passage that leaves me hanging....Ive heard a couple different views on it but I refuse to make a solid call until I see it for myself without all the ''interpretation'' :D





My question is why its presented like that....as in His foreknowing like that.
Why not just skip the foreknowledge part and say ''predestined'' ?

anyway.....thats one of a few passages that keep me believing in this ''postdestinatoin'' for now :)
Hi there FOC , really great to see you in this "neck of the woods" :wave:
The thing about "Foreknowledge" as Reformationist indicated is that it is always people that are in view not what they do!
If it was true that God chose us on the basis of what we would do then that is works ......even forseen works is still works.
Also , almost the same arguement as Reformationist makes about the "redundancy" of Foreknowledge if God knows all things ...........I have already stated what need for predestination at all ?
Also Election is by God's Sovereign descision (Rom 9 ) but if it isn't , then again I ask why do you need it ?? The answer is so obvious , you don't!
There is absolutely no need for Election IF we choose God.
To sum up , either fate rules the world (fate is blind)
or Chance rules the world ( chance does not exist see Sproul)
or God's Wisdom through Providence rules the world.

BTW , How do you interpret "depart from me for I NEVER knew you" ?

Keep up the search FOC , the results will be worth it. :amen:
 
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cygnusx1

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Here is quote from an excellent web page that is both clear and straight to the point......

B. A Critical Apology

What about election? All who believe the Bible believe in election, either conditional or unconditional. Pelagianism and Arminianism teach a conditional election, while Calvinism teaches an unconditional election. What does the Bible teach? Which of the following is Scriptural?

God elected me because I first elected to believe. He chose me because I first chose Him;

OR

I chose God because He first chose me. He elected me because I could not save myself.

Granted, the believer chooses God, and the believer is chosen of God. The question is, which was the first choice? Which choice resulted from the other? Which was the cause and which the effect? Is it true that "God is careful to elect only those whom He foresees will elect themselves?" Or has God sovereignly chosen his people according to His own will and pleasure?

According to scripture, election is unconditional. That is, God chose apart from setting forth any conditions to be met. But this was not done arbitrarily. There are at least three wise reasons why God elected unconditionally.

1. Because of what God knew (Psalm 14)

[size=-1]The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand and seek God (v. 2).[/size]

  • And what did he observe?
[size=-1]They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one (v. 3).[/size]

The Lord knew from all eternity that men, if left alone, would never choose him, or even seek him. If any were to be spared He had to choose them. The Apostle Paul quoted this Psalm in Romans 3, when revealing the sinfulness of men.

  • Again, in I Corinthians 2:14, Paul wrote:
[size=-1]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/size]

According to this verse, man is in such unbelief that the things of God are to him utter foolishness, i.e., "they are foolishness unto him." Further, man is spiritually dead and thus cannot understand, i.e., "they must be spiritually discerned," or understood.

2. Because of God's great love and mercy.

[size=-1]I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore, with loving kindness have I drawn thee (Jer. 31:3).[/size]

[size=-1]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44, 45).[/size]

Knowing the condition of man, and knowing what man would do in time, the Lord therefore knew that man could not and would not meet any conditions set forth. In sovereign mercy he chose to set his love upon man unconditionally. There was no other way for any person to be saved.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/dec97/frnoldg.htm
 
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cygnusx1

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Arminian Election
"I believe in Bible election. God votes for you, the devil votes against you, and you cast the deciding vote." The evangelist (?) cackled like he had laid an egg after "refuting" the biblical doctrine of election with the above illustration. Since this is the Arminian's favorite story, several things should be pointed out.

First, this illustration denies that God is even close to Almighty. He desperately wants to accomplish His purpose but is unable to do so.
Second the reason that God is unable to do what His heart desires is that another being, of equal ability and power, can checkmate Him. This terrible illustration gives the devil equal power with God.
Third, to add insult to injury, the mighty will of man comes in to break the deadlock between God and the devil. How God-dishonoring can false doctrine become?
The free-willer may be "unwilling" to admit it, but his theology makes man supreme, the devil second, and God is third at worst, and tied for second, at best. I wonder if these people ever read;
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth (Job 23:13).
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (Romans 9:18).

 
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