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A re-examination of nothing

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Jet_A_Jockey

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No, that's what skeptic realism tells us. Common sense doesn't debunk the unimaginable. Common sense tells us that if you touch a hot thing it'll burn you and if you jump off a cliff chances are you'll not be climbing back up.
Sure, but how does common sense play into this? First you have to believe that sexual intercourse is necessary for survival. Then you set the rules from there.

Common sense says that when a person comes ramming in demanding to have sex with a complete stranger we call that rape.
ok I agree with you .
Common sense and thousands of studies say that the reason for rape is almost never sexual, therefore no matter who the rapists are, they aren't doing it for typical pleasure.
Of course not, since there is some hardcore mental issues going on in the head of someone crazy enough to rape others.
Common sense tells us that sex ISN'T the main part of a relationship.
With who, others? God? Which is more important?

Common sense tells us that homosexuality happens in animals so why would God allow animals who don't necessarily have free will to do something that humans are forbidden from doing.
why does God allow animals to kill the babies of other animals (sometimes their own)? Oh wait, we are doing that too aren't we.

Common sense tells us that two men or two women are fully capable of romantic love for each other because couples like these exist.
How does it glorify God?
I'm sure it happens, but I'm not breaking anyone up, all I'm doing is telling what I know. I don't care whether you or anyone else has a same-sex relationship or not, just that you know that there is opposition to your belief that it is scriptural. I would and have not rejected anyone's friendship or anything else because of their sexual preference.

The birth of Christ was NOT meant to be emphasized and is the most unclear, mistranslated story in the Bible.
Sweet, going on a trip to denial 101 now are we?

Do we really have to do this? I mean seriously, I read the bible. Are you pointing out the discrepancies between the biblical story and the common "Christmas" story? One more you can add in there is that it's easy to prove that He wasn't born anywhere near December also.

Do you know what the Holy Spirit is? Did Jesus tell luke everything to write in his gospel? How about Timothy, John of patmos, Jude, or even the OT prophets? Why does your denial stop at Paul and not topple over the rest of the books?
 
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FaithLikeARock

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The anywhere near December isn't mentioned so I don't bother. And yes, you do. Or do you not want to because you know the Christmas story isn't the Christian perception and that Christians have secularized it more than non-Christians have?

I'm going to bed but I'll respond to your first comment and last comment. First, sexual reproduction is required but not for everyone and especially not with a population our size. And once again you're faced with the fact that some people can't have children or just don't want to have children but I don't see you condemning them.

Last, it doesn't stop at Paul. But other writers have such shorts books or books that are simply other renditions of the Gospel and don't mention anything that people try to use to defame others so I don't bother. I'm skeptical about the whole Bible just because nothing as old as it is that's gone through so many tribulations can retain it's completely form without humans ruining it through bad translation, interpretation or bias, and human beings are bias.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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OBJECTION! Relevance? Don't say things just to look pretty Floatingaxe. Trying to appear humble doesn't work on me.
 
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Floatingaxe

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You may disbelieve the word of God, but it is at your peril. The Bible has withstood time and trial and come forth as the light of God's truth--every time!

Everything you say is based on disbelief. It has no strength of argument and I discard it as nothing but denial and bias of your own.
 
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Floatingaxe

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OBJECTION! Relevance? Don't say things just to look pretty Floatingaxe. Trying to appear humble doesn't work on me.


Humility is lost on you? How sad... Obiously you saw some humility, as I wasn't trying to project any! LOL! So, thanks for the compliment! I was simply speaking to the fact that common sense is a fleeting thing and has no merit in an argument such as this. We are mere dustballs. Now THERE'S some humility for you!
 
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FaithLikeARock

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<staff edit>Saying "Oh dear Lord I'm such a terrible sinner" with no reason too and no relevance to the matter at hand is trying to act humble. If you have included it in your argument then I probably wouldn't have given it a second glance. But you came out admitting it despite having no reason. And don't tell me sudden realization because then it would've been first person. It would've been "I" am a sinner not "We" are a sinner.
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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The anywhere near December isn't mentioned so I don't bother. And yes, you do. Or do you not want to because you know the Christmas story isn't the Christian perception and that Christians have secularized it more than non-Christians have?
One common idea about the date of Christmas is that it happened to coincide and override a current pagan holiday at the time. What are you going to tell me about the story of the birth of Jesus that the bible doesnt?

I just asked how does it glorify God, thats all. And same-sex sex only counts as sexual reproduction as much as masturbation does, since they are both in vain. By in vain, I mean in the idea that sexual reproduction actually reproduces.


What do you base your skepticism on? Are you a historian or scholar? What kind of base is it that is a chopping block for 3000 years of history to run up against?

One question I have to ask though , is why are you here debating it? Once again, it's pointless to debate theology if you don't even believe in it.

Also, how is it defamation because one person believes that a certain action is a sin? Like I said, I don't care what you do, just know I may not agree that it is a blessing given from God.

Speaking of God, it seems that in these arguments that our focus on God gets lost. Glory be to God, thank you Lord for all that You do, and if it is in Your will, I ask that you give us the discernment to understand Your ways.
 
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davedjy

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it is fitting
[bible]Genesis 3:19[/bible]
I'm not going to hijack this thread, but I find it odd that someone would use the term, almost as offended: "mere animals", but isn't offended by "mere dust".

Carry on...
 
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Jet_A_Jockey

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I'm not going to hijack this thread, but I find it odd that someone would use the term, almost as offended: "mere animals", but isn't offended by "mere dust".

Carry on...

Probably because a comparison to dust is absolutely biblical and shows the frailty of life as well as the temporal state of things we perceive and live in. Comparison to animals implies a lower standard than that which we are given by God Himself.


And just for you dave, a musical comparison.

http://www.videocodezone.com/videos/k/kansas/dust_in_the_wind_live.html
http://www.allmusicvideocodes.com/k/Kansas/9368-Dust-In-The-Wind-Live/index.html
Vs

http://www.muvids.com/bloodhound_gang_videos/bad_touch.html
 
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Phinehas2

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Dear FaithLikeARock,
I can indeed take sides here. FloatingAxe and Jet_A_Jockey have indeed posted, quoting, citing and affirming Bible passages as their evidence. So you are in no position to start judging their motives form what they post.. This thread is for Biblical evidence to which shows countenance for same-sex sex and same-sex unions.
 
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OllieFranz

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Dear Olliefranz,


No they give God’s purpose, it does not say one of God’s purposes. Your assumption is baseless.

Actually, I agree. That is the only purpose that the Bible ever gives for marriage.

I only said "one of" because so many on your side of the debate play the "It can't be marriage if it can't produce children" card, like the following example. Thank you for telling us that this is a false argument.

 
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savedandhappy1

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Astonishing Relevance

In our exposition of Paul's letter to the Romans, we come now to this astonishingly relevant section in 1:24-28 where Paul touches on the reality of homosexuality. It is relevant for many reasons. For example, yesterday there was conference called "Here I Stand" to address the issue of homosexually active clergymen in the ELCA (Star Tribune, 10/10/98). On the front page of the Star Tribune there was the story of what appeared to be a hate crime against a homosexual student at the University of Wyoming who was in critical condition after being tied to a fence and beaten. In August, 641 Anglican bishops from around the world gathered for the Lambeth Conference in Canterbury, England, and voted overwhelmingly to affirm that homosexual practice is "incompatible with Scripture."

Full-page ads were recently taken out in USA Today and the New York Times and the Washington Post showing some 850 former homosexuals who gathered last summer at the Exodus conference and who declared there is power in Christ to be changed. Here in Minnesota, legal cases continually crop up about child custody and adoption of children by homosexual people. And most immediate of all, here in our church there are people who have homosexual desires and many more people among us who have people in their families whom they care about very deeply who consider themselves homosexual. The reality of homosexuality is inescapable today, and this would come as no surprise to the apostle Paul, and therefore should not to us.
One of the things that makes matters unusual today is the effort on the part of some people to defend the legitimacy of homosexual behavior from the Bible. Most common, for example, is the claim that the denunciations of homosexuality in the New Testament are not references to committed, long-term homosexual relations, which these people say are legitimate, but rather refer to promiscuous homosexual relations and to pederasty, which are not legitimate. To use the words of one scholar, "What the New Testament is against is something significantly different from a homosexual orientation which some people seem to have from their earliest days. In other words, the New Testament is not talking about what we have come to speak of as sexual inversion. Rather, it is concerned with sexual perversion" (Paul Jewett, Interpretation, April, 1985, p. 210).

Simply Denouncing Heterosexuals Engaging in Homosexuality?

With regard to our own text this morning, some would argue that what Paul is denouncing in 1:26b-27 is heterosexual people forsaking what is natural for them and engaging in promiscuous homosexual relations which are unnatural for them. Paul writes, "Their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts." So, the argument goes, it is not unnatural when a homosexual person has homosexual relations, it is only unnatural when heterosexual persons have homosexual relations and (by implication) homosexual persons have heterosexual relations. There are at least three major problems with this way of interpreting these verses. I will mention them because the last one will take us into the overall exposition of this section of Romans. The first problem is that in verse 27 Paul says, "The men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another." Now if these were men who were by nature heterosexual, and who were going against their natural desires, what is the meaning of "they burned in their desire toward one another"? It is a very strong term. Does a natural heterosexual burn with lust for another man? If not, it is very unlikely that what Paul is dealing with here is the subject of heterosexuals engaging in homosexuality.


There is such a thing as a bisexual, who seems to have desires for both men and women. But if that were in Paul's mind, the interpretation we are talking about wouldn't work either, because then the burning of a man for a man and a woman would both be natural (according to this interpretation), and Paul would be unjust to denounce either one. But he does denounce this unnatural burning and the acts that follow. So the argument doesn't work that says, Paul is only denouncing homosexual acts by heterosexual people.

The second reason the argument doesn't work is that when Paul says in verse 27b, "Their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural," the Greek phrase for "that which is unnatural" (ten para phusin) is a stock phrase in Greek ethical literature of the time for homosexual behavior per se, not for homosexual behavior among heterosexuals - as though that's what made it unnatural.* So it is very unlikely that Paul is arguing that what's wrong and unnatural about these folks is that they are heterosexuals by nature and acting contrary to nature by doing homosexual acts. "Contrary to nature" in this text, as it most Hellenistic literature of the time, meant homosexual behavior per se. That's what Paul regards as unnatural.
The third argument against this kind of interpretation is the most significant, because it takes us into the deeper meaning of this text. But before I develop it, let me explain where we are going in these two weeks. My aim today is to give as sound and faithful an exposition of Romans 1:24-28 as I can, which will leave me little time for application. That is why I plan to continue the message next week. We will need to broaden our Biblical base and to tackle some practical issues next week.


Pray for Biblical Balance

My prayer for both weeks is that we as a church, and I in particular as the preacher, will find a Biblical balance between clear conviction about the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, on the one hand, and patient compassion to come alongside those of you who have homosexual desires, and your friends and relatives, and seek your good. I have no desire to drive homosexual people away. On the contrary, I would like to be able to say of our congregation what Paul said to the church in Corinth: after mentioning "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers," he says in 6:11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." I would like us to be a church like that - justified sinners battling together to walk in purity, with all of our differing genetic, hormonal, environmental disorders that incline everyone of us, in varying ways, to do sinful things. We will talk more about that next week. It's a very important issue. But the point for now is simply this: we want to be a church where homosexual people can either overcome their sexual disorder, or find the faith and courage and help and love and power to live a triumphant, joyful, celibate life with the disorder.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper98/10-11-98.htm

I found the above study/sermon covers Romans 1 very well, and I think the prayer covers so well the true feelings and desires for the biggest amount of Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin.

I will put the third argument against the above interpratation on the next post so that maybe the reading of the prayer/feelings of most Christians will maybe be better understood.
 
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savedandhappy1

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Triple Repetition of Three-fold Sequence of Thought
Now we turn to the third reason for rejecting the interpretation of Romans 1:26-27 which says that Paul is not denouncing homosexuals who do what comes naturally, but rather he is denouncing promiscuous heterosexuals who act unnaturally by doing homosexual acts. The reason is that the overall argument of the passage assumes another viewpoint.
Let's look at it. Three times in this passage Paul repeats a three-fold sequence of thought. The three-fold sequence of thought goes like this:
· Step 1 - Human beings exchange God for what God has made; we prefer the creature to the Creator. · Step 2 - God hands us over to what we prefer. · Step 3 - We act out externally and bodily in our sexual relations a dramatization of the internal, spiritual condition of the fallen human soul, namely, the horrendous exchange of God for man and the images of our power.
Walk with me through the text. I will show you the three times that Paul gives us this sequence of thought.


First time through the three-fold sequence - verses 23-34
Step 1 "They exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man . . ." (verse 23).
Step 2 "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity" (verse 24).
Step 3 ". . . so that their bodies would be dishonored among them" (end of verse 24). In response to the rejection of God's glory as their treasure, God wills that there be a disordering of their bodily life in dishonorable deeds. He hands them over to impurity "so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." The sexual disordering of the human race is a judgment of God for our exchanging him for the creature - all of us.
Second time through the same steps - verses 25-27
Step 1 "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen" (verse 25). This parallels verse 23: they exchanged the glory of God for images. The "truth of God" is that he is glorious and to be desired above all things. The "lie" preferred by us humans is that the creature is more desirable than God.
Step 2 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions" (verse 26). That parallels verse 24: "God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity."
Step 3 ". . . for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts" (verses 26b-27). That corresponds to verse 24b: ". . . so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." So the dishonoring of the body that Paul had in mind in verse 24 is specifically homosexual behavior. And notice carefully, now we can say more specifically than in the first sequence of thought: The sexual disordering of the human race, especially homosexuality (but not only homosexuality) is a judgment of God for our exchanging the truth of God for a lie.
Third time through the same three-fold sequence - verse 28
Step 1 "They did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer" (verse 28). That corresponds to verses 23 and 25: they exchanged the glory of God for images and they exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Here: they simply don't want God in their knowledge any more.
Step 2 "God gave them over to a depraved mind" (verse 28b). That corresponds to verse 24, "God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity," and verse 26, "God gave them over to degrading passions." This was God's response to the universal exchange of God for the creature. Step 3 "[He gave them over . . .] to do those things which are not proper" (verse 28c). That corresponds to verse 24b: ". . .so that their bodies would be dishonored among them," and to verses 26b-27, where the women and the men are pursuing homosexual relations. So homosexual behavior is parallel with dishonoring the body and doing what is not proper.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper98/10-11-98.htm

October 11, 1998
Bethlehem Baptist Church
John Piper, Pastor
 
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davedjy

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The problem with this interpretation is it relies on a faulty notion that Paul is referring to homosexuals acting out as homosexuals, with out any proof of that interpretation.
Phusis and Phusikos both mean a person's natural disposition, and what comes naturally and instinctively to them. It is a faulty notion to believe that gays and lesbians abandon their natural inclination to the opposite sex to be with the same sex.
 
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Floatingaxe

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No, it is a perfectly normal "notion". It is faulty to think that the faulty inclination is normal!

Isaiah 5:20
What sorrow for those who say
that evil is good and good is evil,
that dark is light and light is dark,
that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.
 
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savedandhappy1

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The second reason the argument doesn't work is that when Paul says in verse 27b, "Their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural," the Greek phrase for "that which is unnatural" (ten para phusin) is a stock phrase in Greek ethical literature of the time for homosexual behavior per se, not for homosexual behavior among heterosexuals - as though that's what made it unnatural.*
 
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