A question

[JM]

that's been plaguing me and I'd like some input on it.

If God loves all men/the reprobate or those not elect, why didn't He elect them?

 

[cygnusx1]

that's been plaguing me and I'd like some input on it.

If God loves all men/the reprobate or those not elect, why didn't He elect them?

Because God wished to contrast Mercy with Jusice ..... and God's blessings are always unmerited.

Your question reminds me of , "if God loves all the Elect , why does He grant some more than others " ? see the parable of the talents .

Even amongst the elect there is an election!

compare Daniel and John as being particularly and especially favoured and loved even in the midst of the Elect who are favoured and loved.

 

[arunma]

As my pastor once mentioned it, God loves those who are not the elect in the sense that he wishes to save them, if only they would repent and believe in Christ. Of course God is sovereign, so I understand that this explanation doesn't make perfect sense to us. But I find it to be a satisfactory answer.

 

[synger]

I've always seen it as a parent/child thing. My best friend was divorced from her husband, and he took their two sons with him. The boys refused to talk to their mother, or answer her cards, or visit her, since that time. Yet, like the Prodigal's father, she loves them even so. She cannot feed or clothe or communicate with them. But she can love them.

 

[edie19]

that's been plaguing me and I'd like some input on it.

If God loves all men/the reprobate or those not elect, why didn't He elect them?

To me the issue has never been that there are some He chooses not to elect, but rather that He chose to elect any at all. We all deserve His righteous judgement.

 

[JM]

Because God wished to contrast Mercy with Jusice ..... and God's blessings are always unmerited.

Your question reminds me of , "if God loves all the Elect , why does He grant some more than others " ? see the parable of the talents .

Even amongst the elect there is an election!

compare Daniel and John as being particularly and especially favoured and loved even in the midst of the Elect who are favoured and loved.

You mentioned election within election, couldn't that be used as a contrast?

 

[JM]

As my pastor once mentioned it, God loves those who are not the elect in the sense that he wishes to save them, if only they would repent and believe in Christ. Of course God is sovereign, so I understand that this explanation doesn't make perfect sense to us. But I find it to be a satisfactory answer.

But God knows who will repent based on election, not foreknowledge, right?

 

[JM]

I've always seen it as a parent/child thing. My best friend was divorced from her husband, and he took their two sons with him. The boys refused to talk to their mother, or answer her cards, or visit her, since that time. Yet, like the Prodigal's father, she loves them even so. She cannot feed or clothe or communicate with them. But she can love them.

At some point, all analogies break down, and analogies don't prove anything they are used to explain.

 

[JM]

To me the issue has never been that there are some He chooses not to elect, but rather that He chose to elect any at all. We all deserve His righteous judgement.

I understand, but this doesn't offer an answer, just sides steps the question.

____________________________________________


DON'T GET ME WRONG, I APPRIECIATE THE POSTS!

I'm just struggling to understand and it's painful.

 

[Jon_]

that's been plaguing me and I'd like some input on it.

If God loves all men/the reprobate or those not elect, why didn't He elect them?

As my pastor once mentioned it, God loves those who are not the elect in the sense that he wishes to save them, if only they would repent and believe in Christ. Of course God is sovereign, so I understand that this explanation doesn't make perfect sense to us. But I find it to be a satisfactory answer.

If he wants to save them, why doesn't he? Does not the Scripture testify that the Lord has done whatsoever he pleased (Pss. 115:3; 135:6)?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JM]

Billy Talks to his Pastor about God

Billy: "Pastor, does God love everybody?"

[SIZE=-0]Pastor:[SIZE=-0] "Yes, Billy (smile, pats him on the head).

Billy: "How come it says in Romans 9 that he hated Esau?"

Pastor: "Been reading your Bible, huh, Billy? (still smiles). Well, the Bible also says that God hates, but that only is talking about God's secret decree, and as far as we are concerned, he loves everybody."

Billy: "Pastor?".

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "If God tells us about his secret decree, is it still a secret?"

Pastor: "Er, well, I guess…not, Billy, but I meant that we should realize that there is a way the Bible talks about God's love for everybody, and that's what we should think about, not the one or two places where it says God hates."

Billy: "Oh. How is it that God loves everybody?"

Pastor: "Well, he gives everybody rain and sunshine, and he blesses the people of the earth with a conscience so they know right from wrong, and he has given them many gifts which they use to make the world a better and safer place to live."

Billy: "Then he sends most of them to hell?"

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Pastor?"

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Is it love for God to give people good things for a few years to make them feel comfortable and worthwhile, and then send them to hell?"

Pastor: "Well, I… yes, it…is, I think, because it would have been worse if, I mean it would be, um, well, it is, I guess, because he did not send them directly to hell, but he allowed them to experience his goodness and his provision for his creatures…"

Billy: "Is it love to let someone experience something good they will remember forever and always hate God for, because that good thing they loved more than forgiveness?"

Pastor: "Could we change the subject, Billy? I am not sure my answers are satisfying you."

Billy: "O.K., Pastor. Did Jesus die for everybody?"

Pastor: "Why, sure, Billy." [/SIZE]

Billy: "Pastor"

[SIZE=-0]Pastor:[/SIZE][SIZE=-0] "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "If Jesus died for everybody, why isn't everybody going to heaven?"

Pastor: "Well Billy, its because not everybody will accept him."

Billy: "But Pastor, I thought Jesus saved us. You are telling me that we save Jesus."

Pastor: (Laughing nervously) Of course not, Billy! I believe that Jesus saves us completely! However would you get the idea that I believed we save Jesus?

Billy: "Well, Pastor, you told me that Jesus died for everybody, and that only those who accept him will be saved. So, this means Jesus' death and resurrection, what Jesus does, cannot save us of itself, but something more is needed, and that something more is what we do by accepting him. For those who do not accept Jesus, they will perish. That means that Jesus' dying for them cannot help them. In fact, it means that Jesus' work for them was a miserable failure. On the other hand, those who accept him make his work real by their acceptance—and they save his work from being a failure. Without us, Jesus, and his work of salvation—would be doomed! If Jesus cannot save us without the permission we give of our own free will, then we are the real saviors, and Jesus is the one we save! Wow! What would he ever do without us?!

Pastor: "Er… uh…that's not what I mean. I mean if, it is, I said…no, I believe Jesus is the one who does the saving, Billy, its just that… God has made it so that we… are free to acc… meaning, we are, are…Billy, the Bible is mysterious. It seems to mean certain things, but it doesn't really, like it says…you are using logic, Billy. The Bible is not logical, and the truths are not something we can fit into our own minds."

Billy: "Pastor."

Pastor: "Yes, Billy (now showing a slight frown).

Billy: "When you say the Bible is not logical, does that mean the Bible does not make sense? 'Cause you made sense when you said the Bible wasn't logical. I think it was because you used logic that you made sense." [/SIZE]

Pastor: (Now glowering at Billy) No, Billy, I didn't mean the Bible does not make sense. It does make sense, but just not our kind of sense".

[SIZE=-0]Billy:[/SIZE][SIZE=-0] "Pastor."

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Why would God give a Bible to us that did not make our kind of sense?"

Pastor: "Well, Billy, its not that… I think its…it makes sense, just does not give us the answers we like to hear, and says things that seem contradictory but really are not, to keep us from asking smart- aleck questions."

Billy: "So, God doesn't make our kind of sense to keep us humble?"

Pastor: "That's right, Billy. God wants to keep us humble, so he does not let us think we can be absolutely certain about the things some proud people are certain about."

Billy: "Pastor."

Pastor: "Yes, Billy."

Billy: "Are you certain about what you just said to me?"

Pastor: "(Showing obvious irritation) What do you think, Billy?"

Billy: "I think you just called yourself a proud person, but I don't know why, 'cause you are so smart and know so much about God, and how much he needs us."

Pastor: "Billy, why don't you go out and play, like the other children?"

Billy: "Why should I go out and play, when I can stay in here with you and learn how to save God?"

Pastor: "You need to be careful, Billy. I never said we save God. You are the one who said that, young man. I simply believe our choices are significant, and God does not treat us like robots or lifeless stones. He created us to have true human responsibility."

Billy: "Pastor"

Pastor: (Now looking quite angry at young Billy) "This will have to be the last question, young man! I have important things to do and you should be outside playing."

Billy: "When God put Abraham to sleep, was he telling him what he thought of his human responsibility?"

Pastor: (Seething with rage) I have a bad headache, Billy, and I can't answer any more of your questions, but I can tell you this. Whoever has been teaching you has been telling you things a boy your age should not even be thinking about. It sounds like you have been learning some kind of hyper-Calvinism. You better be careful, young man!

Billy: "I don't know about hyper- Calintisim, but I have been reading these things in the Bible. Thanks for straightening me out. I will try to cut these bad parts out. Can I borrow some scissors?

Pastor: (Rising from his chair) Get out of here, you, you, you…!

Billy: "That's O.K., pastor. I'll ask Joey. He was using some good scissors when we were cutting out our 'friends with Jesus' pictures for Sunday School. Good- by." [/SIZE][/SIZE]© 1997 Copyright, by John Pedersen

The site is down right now, but it was here that you can find it: http://www.arminiancaptivity.com/

 

[bradfordl]

If God loves all men/the reprobate or those not elect, why didn't He elect them?

Please give me a scripture proof for that statement.

Your question reminds me of , "if God loves all the Elect , why does He grant some more than others " ? see the parable of the talents .

Even amongst the elect there is an election!

Wasn't one among those an unregenerate? Does this parable apply to the question?

As my pastor once mentioned it, God loves those who are not the elect in the sense that he wishes to save them, if only they would repent and believe in Christ.

Arunma, my brother! Are you caught up in an arminian church? There is nothing that God "wishes" that does not come to pass! If anything could thwart His will, that thing would be sovereign over Him! They CANNOT repent and believe except God grants them the grace of that ability. I would run hard and fast away from any who claimed to be a shepherd of the Lord's flock that held to such a blatantly synergistic view of salvation.

If he wants to save them, why doesn't he? Does not the Scripture testify that the Lord has done whatsoever he pleased (Pss. 115:3; 135:6)?

Absolutely!

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

He endures with much longsuffering the vessels fitted to destruction, but He loves them? I don't see the evidence.

Billy Talks to his Pastor about God
I got that a long time ago, and its good.

B

 

[JM]

Scripture proof for what? The election to reprobation?

Exodus 9:16 & Romans 9:17
- for this purpose have I raised thee up

Deuteronomy 2:30
- God harden the heart to direct history

Joshua 11:20
- harden those hearts

1 Samuel 2:25
- Jehovah was minded to slay them

Proverbs 16:4
- God made the wicked
- God made the wicked for the day of evil

Matthew 11:25
- hide these things from certain people

Matthew 13:10-15 & Isaiah 6:9-10
- spoke in parables to conceal the truth
see also Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10; John 12:40; Acts 28:27; Romans 11:9-10. It should be clear, the evangelical proclamation hardens some hearts.

Luke 2:34
- was set up for falling

John 9:39
- made blind

John 12:39-40
- they could not believe
- God blinded their eyes
- God harden their hearts

Romans 1:28
- God gave them over
- to do the things that are not fitting

Romans 9:22-23
- fitted for destruction, or prepared for destruction
- He (God) prepared for destruction to show His glory

2 Thessalonians 2:11
- God will send them strong delusion
- in order for them to believe the lie

1 Peter 2:8
- those who rejected Jesus
- were appointed

Jude 4
- marked out
- for THIS condemnation

2 Peter 2:12
- made to be taken
- and destroyed, hence made for destruction
- will perish

Revelation 13:8
- names were not written in the book of life

Revelation 17:17
- put in their hearts
- to fulfill His will

or, to state it a different way: Did these folks have a choice?

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.

“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

We can be sure at least one was elected never to come to Christ, the son of perdition in John 17, he was lost for fulfill Scripture.

Non-Calvinists still have a problem to deal when they deny election. If election is based on the foreknowledge of God knowing that you would accept the Gospel, then God still created a mass of people that would only be sent to hell for not believing the Gospel. Another point, if Jesus died for everyone the God would give everyone a chance to accept the Gospel, but He doesn't. We all agree no salvation exists outside of Jesus Christ, so the many pagan nations and peoples who never heard the Gospel are left without the means by which to be saved....this is election.

"... And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ..."

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

That's all I got,

jm

 

[bradfordl]

Scripture proof for what? The election to reprobation?

The scripture proof I was asking for was to the statement that God loves all men. I now see you were being rhetorical, and did not mean you held to that idea. The scriptures you cite prove the opposite. I believe you're talking about equal ultimacy, and I agree with it.

Brad

 

[seekingpurity047]

Well, you can compare God's love with God's grace, that is, God loves everyone, but especially the elect. Sorta like His grace, God gives grace to everyone, but only saving grace to the elect.

To the glory of God,

Randy

 

[JM]

The scripture proof I was asking for was to the statement that God loves all men. I now see you were being rhetorical, and did not mean you held to that idea. The scriptures you cite prove the opposite. I believe you're talking about equal ultimacy, and I agree with it.

Brad

Ahhhh, I see. I too am interested in seeing that Scritprue.

 

[BBAS 64]

that's been plaguing me and I'd like some input on it.

If God loves all men/the reprobate or those not elect, why didn't He elect them?

Good Day, JM

The question really presupposes that God is obligated to to elect based upon his love with out distiction. When in fact IMO God can love every one "some" in one way, "some" in another way.

Not all kinds of Love lead to election, election serves a purpose whith he purposed in himself.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JM]

True Bill. In fact, God so loved the world...etc. I think this is a possible verse to teach that whosoever believes [knowing not all will], are saved.

 

[Rick Otto]

"For God so loved the world..." has to be taken in context or comes in direct conflict with too many other scriptures.
I think the only world God loves is the one He made.
And that ain't the one we are in, but not supposed to be a part of.
In other words,
He doesn't love what the world has become.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

"For God so loved the world..." has to be taken in context or comes in direct conflict with too many other scriptures.
I think the only world God loves is the one He made.
And that ain't the one we are in, but not supposed to be a part of.
In other words,
He doesn't love what the world has become.

Absolutely!

Here's something that is often forgotten as a consequence of Man's disobedience:

17) And to Adam he said,

"Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
'You shall not eat of it,'
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;​

Genesis 3:17, ESV, emphasis by CDL​

God cursed the creation because of that disobedience. See also, Romans 8:19-22.