A question

[boughtwithaprice]

Yes, though, back to the original topic, the Catholic POV on the inherent goodness of God's creation does make more sense to me personally. Hopefully my belief regarding this isn't offensive as well.

Don't worry, its not

 

[PeterPaul]

Luther suffered scrupulosity. There is no bashing going on by using that word or attesting to his disorder. I'm sorry if that offends others, but even when I was a Lutheran I knew this. Using the context of this being an attack on "Reformers" is just a clever device used to throw the conversation off track and silence any further discussion of it.

 

[BornCath]

That is definitely NOT a teaching of any protestant church I have ever been in contact with, and that ranks in the dozens. Where did you get the idea that protestants believe they can sin with impunity??? The idea is shocking and even inflammatory. There is no "amount" of belief that confers grace, because saving grace doesn't come in increments. Christ died once for all our sins and they are all covered the moment we are saved, but we are very aware that wanton sin is a sign that we never had faith in Christ at all, and no one who willfully does evil can rightfully consider himself saved. If a person goes to a hundred prostitutes after coming to faith in Christ, I would either think that there is some mental pathology going on or that this person has no relationship with Christ at all.

It is shocking to you and to many enlightened protestants but not to Luther & his followers when they were alive. If Luther can rise from his grave, he will most likely excommunicate you for being shocked by his particular belief.

 

[Mystery5]

I think Protestant denominations widely vary regarding this.

As far as salvation by faith or works, I believe the Lutherans and Catholic Church have come to an accord on this. We are saved through grace, I think we all agree.

 

[Jamme]

Luther suffered scrupulosity. There is no bashing going on by using that word or attesting to his disorder. I'm sorry if that offends others, but even when I was a Lutheran I knew this. Using the context of this being an attack on "Reformers" is just a clever device used to throw the conversation off track and silence any further discussion of it.

Right
You can see this VERY clearly by reading Luthers writings.
Most of them are available somewhere on the web, for anyone who hasn't had at least a quick wee squint at them!

 

[BornCath]

(Not all non-Roman Catholics are like that)

You're perfectly right. That's why I refer to fundamentalist only because I know that there are many different kind of protestants tho' I don't know if Lutherans & other protestants believe the 'sin boldly but believe more' and 'OSAS' teachings of Luther.

 

[Benedicta00]

See ? We can agree on something.

This is my biggest, baddest, most imposing problem with born-again Christian theology. They believe that we are evil and not part of the greater universe. Catholics believe we are good but have issues and we are an integeral part of God's great tapesty.

Feel's good, doesn't it ?

Well thank God, Charlie!

 

[Benedicta00]

That is definitely NOT a teaching of any protestant church I have ever been in contact with, and that ranks in the dozens. Where did you get the idea that protestants believe they can sin with impunity??? The idea is shocking and even inflammatory. There is no "amount" of belief that confers grace, because saving grace doesn't come in increments. Christ died once for all our sins and they are all covered the moment we are saved, but we are very aware that wanton sin is a sign that we never had faith in Christ at all, and no one who willfully does evil can rightfully consider himself saved. If a person goes to a hundred prostitutes after coming to faith in Christ, I would either think that there is some mental pathology going on or that this person has no relationship with Christ at all.

It’s not inflammatory, it is a direct quote from Luther and it was his teaching. It may not be yours or all of Protestantism, but it was his.

 

[Benedicta00]

That's inflammatory and unnecessary to the discussion. I'd like you to edit it if you would, please. Luther's mental status is considered crazy by catholics, but it makes perfectly rational sense to those who believe in salvation by faith, and since that is the case, it is just plain wrong for someone who does not accept the concept of salvation through faith alone to accuse him of being unstable. The same things could be said of Augustine, because he exhibited the same traits, but it is undoubtedly because both men were so passionate about God that they came off as being crazy.

Again, this is factual information about Luther. It’s not flaming.

To each his own, and no doubt that is the reason you chose the faith you did as opposed to the other choices.

Now this is flaming. We do not choose Catholicism because it fits what we want to believe, we believe because it is objectively true.

I think this concept of bending to the truth is truly difficult for some because of pride issues, the biggest wound of sin we have. We need to conform to the truth, not pick and chose what we want the truth to be.

 

[Benedicta00]

It is shocking to you and to many enlightened protestants but not to Luther & his followers when they were alive. If Luther can rise from his grave, he will most likely excommunicate you for being shocked by his particular belief.

I agree, I think, IMO, that Luther is turning in his grave watching that Protestantism has become, he even saw it in his day and complained then. I think it is really sad the way Protestants use him for the famous “Sola Scripture” while not caring one bit about his true message.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Didn't Luther have syphilis, isn't that what drove him insane?

I agree, I think, IMO, that Luther is turning in his grave watching that Protestantism has become, he even saw it in his day and complained then. I think it is really sad the way Protestants use him for the famous “Sola Scripture” while not caring one bit about his true message.

Yep! I agree. Sadder still, a lot of non-Catholics only regard him as a "hero" for challenging the Catholic Church, but don't even follow his teachings.... just that he wasn't Catholic anymore. Very sad.

 

[Jamme]

Didn't Luther have syphilis, isn't that what drove him insane?


Yep! I agree. Sadder still, a lot of non-Catholics only regard him as a "hero" for challenging the Catholic Church, but don't even follow his teachings.... just that he wasn't Catholic anymore. Very sad.

Actually, Luther was initially a brilliant monk, and a lot of his earlier writing is highly supportive of traditional Catholic teaching

However, he was well known to suffer from depression (I don;t know for sure about syphilis but I will look that up!) and his later writings reflect his state of mind, and his frustrations with life.

Read them and see

 

[PeterPaul]

Now this is flaming. We do not choose Catholicism because it fits what we want to believe, we believe because it is objectively true.

Exactly. I returned to Catholicism because I was proven wrong, not because it fit me. After all, if anything fits me, it would be night clubbing and picking up chicks.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Actually, Luther was initially a brilliant monk, and a lot of his earlier writing is highly supportive of traditional Catholic teaching

However, he was well known to suffer from depression (I don;t know for sure about syphilis but I will look that up!) and his later writings reflect his state of mind, and his frustrations with life.

Read them and see

I've read parts of his writings, not all. I did notice that his earlier writings are quite different than his later ones, the decline shows.

As for the OP,
I believe that we are inherantly good, with the abilty to become or be evil (free choice) God created us good, we choose to do evil.

 

[Mystery5]

Well, I have nothing against 'born again' Christians, but I just disagree with the theology. I find it simplistic. I consider it to be a result of our American tendency to want a quick solution to life's complexity. We are a fast food society that values individuality above all things. We are not a particularly humble people, I daresay.

So many of these various Protestant sects cropped up in America, where people tend to embrace new as better, always looking to be on the frontier. They always were started by a charismatic leader who developed a following. The latest in this trend is Evangelical Christianity which seems to be a media driven movement, highly emphasizing this individuality, and deemphasizing any obedience to a hierarchy.

Anyways, just my observations. I do think highly of many Evangelicals and find them to live just as holy lives as any others.

 

[Wolseley]

To the best of my knowledge, Luther never had syphilis. He did suffer from depression and from scruples, however; and he also advocated ideas that were a lot odder than sola fide.

For example, he told the German princes during the Peasant's Rebellion that they could get to heaven faster by slaughtering peasants than they could by prayer; he stated that he could see nothing in Scripture against polygamy; and he advocated violence and hatred against the Jews on a level that would have made Hitler proud.

Not exactly a plaster saint, but then, he never kept a stable of women (a good half of them married, and one of them his own daughter ) for his sexual pleasures---and our very own Roman Pontiff, Pope Alexander VI did.

But Alexander never advocated that everybody should behave exactly as he did.....and Luther apparently did.

 

[Cjwinnit]

Anglicans follow the "intrinsically evil" line as well.

This is why in the UK traditionally, Anglicans have voted Conservative and Catholics have voted Labour.

Of course boundaries have blurred between the parties today and this isn't the case anymore.

Otherwise known as "the conservative party at prayer".

 

[Ann M]

To the best of my knowledge, Luther never had syphilis. He did suffer from depression and from scruples, however; and he also advocated ideas that were a lot odder than sola fide.

For example, he told the German princes during the Peasant's Rebellion that they could get to heaven faster by slaughtering peasants than they could by prayer; he stated that he could see nothing in Scripture against polygamy; and he advocated violence and hatred against the Jews on a level that would have made Hitler proud.

Not exactly a plaster saint, but then, he never kept a stable of women (a good half of them married, and one of them his own daughter ) for his sexual pleasures---and our very own Roman Pontiff, Pope Alexander VI did.

But Alexander never advocated that everybody should behave exactly as he did.....and Luther apparently did.

The things we learn from you guys!!

 

[Benedicta00]

Actually, Luther was initially a brilliant monk, and a lot of his earlier writing is highly supportive of traditional Catholic teaching

However, he was well known to suffer from depression (I don;t know for sure about syphilis but I will look that up!) and his later writings reflect his state of mind, and his frustrations with life.

Read them and see

I actually feel sorry for the guy and I hope God did have Mercy on him at his death.

Maybe if there was Prozac or Zoloft back then there would have been no reformation.

What is really sad is how Satan exploited his illness. I don’t think Luther stood a chance.

 

[Benedicta00]

Exactly. I returned to Catholicism because I was proven wrong, not because it fit me. After all, if anything fits me, it would be night clubbing and picking up chicks.

Ah, yes, the Christian life is a sacrifice.