A question to theistic evolutionists

[Jet Black]

I post this in science, since it is where most of the people I deal with hang out... if a mod wants, move it over to General Apologetics.

I have been intrigued by this for a while now... I know the position of theistic evolutionists... basically that God's method of doing (pretty much) everything is by natural law... I just wonder where you fit your belief systems around this. do you believe the miracles were miracles? I assume you believe in the ressurection and so on....

I am not here to knock down beliefs or anything, I am just interested, so don't feel you have to defend yourselves. Of course, don't reply if you don't want (or reply by pm) I hope a few of you are willing to answer the questions of an inquisitive mind.

 

[T.R.D.]

I believe that the miracles were miracles, unexplainable by science. However, I don't believe that miracles happen in today's world.

 

[wblastyn]

I believe the miralces that occured were miracles. I believe miracles do still happen today. But just because something is a miracles doesn't mean God can't use the laws of our universe to do it, I heard the plagues of Egypt explained by a volcanoe erupting near by.

Big things like the resurrection obviously take supernatural powers, but I don't believe God is some sky fairy casting spells and such.

 

[JohnR7]

I have been intrigued by this for a while now... I know the position of theistic evolutionists... basically that God's method of doing (pretty much) everything is by natural law... I just wonder where you fit your belief systems around this. do you believe the miracles were miracles? I assume you believe in the ressurection and so on....

If your going to look at miracles in the natural, then how do you even know God has performed a miracle? All you have to observe, after the fact, is someone or something that is natural and normal. God performs miracles to restore things to the way they should be. The way they should have been all along. It was broke but now it's fixed.

So, you have to look at the odds. We are told that a minority of the people are going to be saved. So maybe only one third of the people please God. So the odds are 33 and one third percent for and 66 and two thirds against making it. That is the cut off point. But there are Christians who can do better than that. Look at the aids people who recover. They have almost no odds at all of recovery. Maybe one to three percent. So, if a person has aids, and they recover their health, then it most likely was a miracles. Because the odds are so much against it. Then look at my pastor, he is 81 years old. What are the odds of him being strong and healthy at his age? Even what are the odds that someone will live to their 80's?

As far as resurrection from the dead, what are the odds? Have you ever heard the terms: "grave yard shift" or "dead ringer"? I hear that they use to tie a bell to dead people. Then if they made a mistake and they really were not dead, they would ring the bell and the person working the "grave yard shift" or night shift would hear the bell. But what are the odds of something like that happening? Esp. in the case of Jesus where He was killed by professional soldiers who should have known what they were doing. That is why the Roman soldiers had to make up a story that the dead body was stolden. The only other option would be to admit they messed up and did not kill Him after all. Because if they said it was a miracle, then they would have to admit He was the Son of God. The miracles would have been considered evidence of that.

Now a days, miracles do not mean what they use to. Often now if people see a miracles, they just figure it is a rare event. Or something happened that they can not explain. My brother is a doctor, he has seen medical miracles. His only explaination is: I can not explain it.

 

[JohnR7]

I believe that the miracles were miracles, unexplainable by science. However, I don't believe that miracles happen in today's world.

You are going to be in trouble if you ever need a miracle. Without the faith to believe it is impossible to please God. You pretty much have to believe in miracles in order to receive a miracle.

 

[Vance]

I am not sure I qualify as a TE, since most of these tend to believe in natural processes wholly with God as just knocking over the first domino. I believe God used the natural processes He developed to bring about much of His Creation, but also believe that He continued to take supernatural steps all along the way and still does to this day.

God created the natural and overrides the natural with the supernatural when He chooses according to His perfect plan. Not all is "perfect" in His creation, of course, since He allows (in almost every case, I believe) the natural processes to take their course and this can result in some inefficiencies, etc.

So, miracles are miracles, natural is natural, and to my mind, the creation of the natural is, in itself, a miracle.

 

[Michali]

to my mind, the creation of the natural is, in itself, a miracle.

Good quote. Existence is an undeniable miracle. It is most certain that what we consider natural, is a miracle in itself.

At the beginning of it all, when EVERY variable had the value of zero (even including space and time), how could "1" be concieved? How did thousands and millions come about? Matter, space, and time did not always exist. If there is no beginning then they always existed. They are not God.

Then again, if you are an atheist, matter can neither be created nor destroyed so they have always been existant. If so, time is infinite and so is everything else. This means that EVERYTHING has happened and will happen. The universe was in the shape of a bunny rabit one time, one time it was completely neon pink, and everything that is happening now probably happened before (Or maybe not if existance is irrational). This is completely absurd. It means that we're lucky that in the next second, a random act of chaos does not occur. And look at how many moments we have gone by in stability.

Above reality and above the "number line" there is a constant "1" that everything came from and is in. The question we must answer first is: "Is there a beginning? A time when there was 0 and then it became existence." before we question -how- that "something" first came about. The "I Am" is the only theory I have heard concerning this. The living God is actually the most abstract theory ever -learned- by man.

 

[Didaskomenos]

God uses the laws of the universe he created to accomplish most of what he wants done. Intervention is a cornerstone of the Christian faith, as you already noted with the Resurrection. Any law can be avoided (although not violated) by someone with the right means. Gravity can be prevented - even on earth - by scientists who have not broken the law of gravity, but who know other "laws" that circumvent gravity. I don't think God would institute laws in the universe that he was just going to break all the time anyway - miracles are simply God's manipulation of undiscovered "laws" for a purpose. At least, that's what I think.

 

[lucaspa]

If your going to look at miracles in the natural, then how do you even know God has performed a miracle? All you have to observe, after the fact, is someone or something that is natural and normal.

Atheism is showing thru here. Is God absent from what is "natural and normal". Because it is "natural and normal" is it any less a miracle? Birth of a human baby is very natural and normal. Yet many people also regard it as a miracle. Are they all wrong?

God performs miracles to restore things to the way they should be.

Not always. After, the miracles of the Exodus were to establish something that had never been before: Israel

And Jesus' resurrection was not performed to restore things the way they "should be". After all, Jesus SHOULD have been dead. He was executed.

So, you have to look at the odds.

So everthing against the odds is a miracle? The person that wins the lottery just witnessed a miracle?

Because the odds are so much against it. Then look at my pastor, he is 81 years old. What are the odds of him being strong and healthy at his age? Even what are the odds that someone will live to their 80's?

Talk to the insurance companies. They keep tables on that, you know?

John, have you ever heard of bell-shaped curves? You do realize that in every population there are those that lie very far from the mean?

That is why the Roman soldiers had to make up a story that the dead body was stolden.

Actually, the Roman soldiers are in later versions of the account because the Jews had already accused the disciples of stealing the body. The soldiers were inserted to refute that story. The earlier versions of the account don't have them.

Now a days, miracles do not mean what they use to. Often now if people see a miracles, they just figure it is a rare event.

Which brings us back to those bell-shaped curves. Just how DO you tell a miracle from the normal event on the tails of a bell-shaped curve?