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That is false. It is a growing demand because of the overwhelming evidence of plain scripture that supports one in Christ. The alternative that supports men only means you are following another religion other than Christianity.(or at best the first step to understanding) Lack of spiritual attainment is no longer considered to be a qualifier for priesthood or pastorship by most, not just women.
Feminism and masculinity both have their thrones that they worship at but to bring them into the full meaning of the church is in itself an organization outside of the scope of mature teaching.
And the 12 disciples are to judge the 12 tribes while the church is for judging something else altogether. Eli and Samuel had their day too.Putting aside what Paul had to say about women in authority.
God Himself chose who would serve as Priests in the First Temple in the wilderness, there were no women chosen, that is the president st by God not man.
No women ever served as Priests of anything else concerning Solomon's, and Herod's Temple either.
And the 12 disciples are to judge the 12 tribes while the church is for judging something else altogether. Eli and Samuel had their day too.
I can't see that there was a push for women's rights in society in 1865-78, when Catherine Booth together with her husband founded the Salvation Army (since the name of the organization changed several times, I am not sure which year is the correct "founding time").It was no accident that the push for women's rights in society and women's ordination in the churches came at the same moment in time.
Unless "priest" is just another term for a pastor, there is no NT evidence for priests in the church. Or to put it the other way round: Every true believer is a priest (for the unbelievers).And no, there is no Scriptural basis for women priests/pastors.
2. some still rely on ECF tradition others "sola scriptura" without as much focus on ECF authority.
It has much to do with following man rather than God. I just don’t believe in any hierarchy and I don’t believe Jesus did either, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.And what does that have to do with women in the Ministry?
Early Church Fathers.English is not my mother tongue, I don't know what "ECF" stands for, and wiki is no help either.
Can anyone explain the meaning of "ECF authority"?
You mean Julia, the outstanding apostle?Putting aside what Paul had to say about women in authority.
Well, but since every believer is now a priest, this includes women, see 1.Pt 2:5,9. So every church with believing female members has female priests.God Himself chose who would serve as Priests in the First Temple in the wilderness, there were no women chosen, that is the precedent st by God not man.
Yes, they learned it from their 'mother', who claim 'Mary' as "virgo sacerdos':Hi. I grew up in a Catholic family...
So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV
Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?
It has much to do with following man rather than God. I just don’t believe in any hierarchy and I don’t believe Jesus did either, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Early Church Fathers.
Putting aside what Paul had to say about women in authority.
God Himself chose who would serve as Priests in the First Temple in the wilderness, there were no women chosen, that is the precedent st by God not man.
Or since this thread is questions to Protestants, from our mother, Grace, better known as Sarah. As representatives of the promise child we see the New Jerusalem as our mother.Yes, they learned it from their 'mother', who claim 'Mary' as "virgo sacerdos':
View attachment 272360 View attachment 272361
“Marked by the priestly piety of the school of Bérulle, Pope Saint Pius X was singularly favourable to the invocation of Our Blessed Lady under the title of Virgo Sacerdos. Already in 1875, Blessed Pius IX had manifested his approval of the same title in a letter addressed to Msgr Oswald Van den Berghe, author of Marie et le Sacerdoce. Saint Pius X was pleased when an Italian translation of this work appeared.
When the Daughters of the Heart of Jesus, founded by Blessed Marie de Jésus Deluil-Martiny, asked for permission to invoke the Mother of God, in their chapels, as Maria Virgo Sacerdos, Saint Pius X wishing to extend the devotion to all the faithful, charged Cardinals Vanutelli and Vivès with composing a prayer that would make this Marian title better known. The prayer appeared, indulgenced by Pope Saint Pius X, on 9 May 1906.
O Mary, Mother of Mercy,
Mother and Daughter of Him who is the Father of mercies
and the God of all consolation (1),
Dispensatrix of all the treasures of thy Son (2),
Minister of God (3),
Mother of Christ, our High Priest,
thou who art both Offerer and Altar together, (4),
Immaculate Temple of the Word of God (5),
Teacher of the Apostles and Disciples of Christ (6),
protect the Supreme Pontiff,
intercede for us and for our priests,
that Jesus Christ the Eternal High Priest
may purify our consciences,
and that we may worthily, and with loving devotion,
approach His sacred banquet.
O Immaculate Virgin,
who not only hast given us Christ the heavenly bread
for the forgiveness of sins (7),
but who art thyself a most acceptable sacrifice offered unto God” (8),
and the glory of priests (9),
and who, as thy most blessed servant Saint Antoninius declares,
“without receiving the Sacrament of Order,
wert full of whatsoever in dignity and grace is given by it”,
thou art therefore rightly acclaimed as “Sacerdotal Virgin” (10).
Look upon us and upon the priests of thy Son,
save us, purify us, and sanctify us,
that we may receive the ineffable treasures of the Sacraments
in a holy manner
and so deserve to obtain
the eternal salvation of our souls. Amen.
Mother of Mercy, pray for us.
Mother of Jesus Christ, the Eternal Priest, pray for us.
Queen of the Clergy, pray for us.
Mary, Sacerdotal Virgin, pray for us.
[1] Richard of Saint Laurence
[2] Saint Bernardine
[3] Saint Bernard of Busto
[4] Saint Epiphanius
[5] Abbot Ludovicus Blosius
[6] Saint Thomas of Villanova.
[7] Saint Epiphanius
[8] Saint Andrew of Crete
[9] Saint Ephrem
[10] Letter of Blessed Pope Pius IX, 25 August 1873
We grant 300 day of indulgence to one who recites this prayer with piety and devotion.
9 May 1906.
Pius P. P. X.” - Prayer to Mary, the Sacerdotal Virgin
““Mary performs her sacrificial functions in two ways: in one way, which is more indirect and less specific, by her providing the sacred victim . . . . and in a more direct, immediate and noble way by concurring with Jesus in this precious sacrifice. While offering the same victim of propriation that belongs to her on the title of her motherhoood . . . . she has become his priestess by offering her divine Son to God for the salvation of the world and thus meriting grace and glory for us by means of this sacrifice, not with the perfect merit and justice which only belongs to Jesus Christ, but with an imperfect merit, a merit of goodwill.” Lazare Dassier (1692), 3e Sermon sur la Purification, l.c. p. 370.
“The gesture with which Christ confided his disciple to his Mother and his Mother to the disciple (16) has defined an extremely close relationship between Mary and the Church. It is the will of the Lord that a Marian note mark the physiognomy of the Church, her road, her pastoral activity; and into the spiritual life of each disciple a "Marian dimension" is infused (17).” …
- “Mary could not escape from Calvary because God had given her the mission to remain there as priest, victim and mediatrix. She had to stay on Calvary, next to the cross and in the heart of her Son. She stood up straight on Calvary and undertook her function as priest. She stood next to the cross and fulfilled the role of a victim. She stayed in the heart of Jesus and acquitted herself of the task of mediatrix: strong in her first task, faithful to her second, devoted in her third . . .Mary had to fulfill her first task, that of being a priest.” St Antonio María Claret (1807 - 1870), Copiosa y vera collección de panegíricos, Rome 1860, vol. 3, pp. 390-391.”
- “If the Saviour, as the Fathers of the Church assure us, is at each Mass the principal priest and the one who offers himself to the Father and who delivers himself up to people, the blessed Virgin shares in this function of the sovereign priesthood, accompanying the oblation and immolation which her Son makes of herself with her own agreement. For it is therefore that St Epiphanius among other praises, calls the Virgin a priest and an altar.” Jean de Machaut (1599 - 1676), Le Thrésor, vol III, pp. 152-153.”
- “Since the will of the Virgin has cooperated with the will of the Son in the realisation of the Eucharist, we can with enough certainty declare and absolutely affirm that she has given us and has offered for us this heavenly bread. In fact, we recognise that the gift which is entrusted to us under these species - - that is : the body and blood of Christ the Lord -- is truly her gift and belongs to her. The divine Epiphanus touched on this reason is his sermon ‘De Laudibus Virginis’.
What could we say or imagine that is more splendid ? He says that the Virgin is a priest in some way in the gift and in the offering of the celestial bread; which is true precisely for this reason that together with her Son she gave and offered [this eucharistic bread], thus realising at the same time both the sacrament and the sacrifice.”
. . . . “It was right that she who was present at the first act of giving, and of whom it was said that she had given and offered together with the Father and the Son, should also be present at the consummation and fulfilment of this donation, to such an extent that we can say that she has in the same way given and offered it (the Eucharist) with her Son. ”
. . “The manner in which the incarnation was achieved in the breast of the Virgin pleased Christ so greatly ...that he invented a new way of repeating it and reiterating it...-... that is, the Eucharist. Ferdinand Chirino de Salazar (1575 - 1646), In Proverbiis, IX, no 148-149, vol. 1, 770D-771A.”
- “Three elements belong to the priesthood and episcopacy: the call, the role of intercession, and sacrifice (Hebr 5, 1) . . . [With regard to intercession] as Son of God Christ has all power over God. Our Lady too, because she is the true Mother of God, has all power over God. And if the prayers and intercessions of Christ are heard on account of the fact that he is the Son, those of Our Lady will not be less heard, and are even heard with more surety because of the fact that she is his Mother. Therefore it is crystal clear that in Mary we find overwhelmingly the second quality required for the dignity of a bishop!” Antonio Vieira (1608 - 1697), Sermon on the Rosary, ib. p. 74.” - http://www.womenpriests.org/mrpriest/m_why.asp
… Every priest knows that Mary, because she is a mother, is the eminent formator of the priesthood, since she is the one who knows how to shape the priestly heart; the Virgin, therefore, knows and wants to protect priests from dangers, exhaustion, and discouragement: with motherly solicitude she watches over the priest so that he may grow in wisdom, age, and grace before God and before men (34). …
...Finally, Mary is the "offering Virgin." The Church has perceived in the heart of the Virgin who carried the Child to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, a willing oblation that transcended the ordinary meaning of the rite (51). "You offer your Son, Holy Virgin, and you present to the Lord the blessed fruit of your womb. You offer the holy victim, pleasing to God, for the reconciliation of us all" (St Bernard). ...
...This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of redemption reaches its culmination at Calvary, where Christ "offered himself, immaculate, to God" (52) and where Mary was beside the cross (53) suffering deeply with her Only Son and associating herself with motherly courage to his sacrifice, adhering lovingly to the immolation of the Victim engendered by her and offering herself as well to the Eternal Father. To perpetuate throughout the centuries the Sacrifice of the Cross, the Savior instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice, memorial of his death and resurrection, and he confided it to his Spouse, the Church... who accomplishes it in union with the Saints in Heaven and, in the first place, with the blessed Virgin, whose ardent charity and unshakable faith she imitates (54).
Therefore the Church, with this same oblationary fervor and spirit lived by Mary, continually exhorts the priest to prepare himself and celebrate the Eucharist, center and summit of his interior life and apostolate. May his priestly hands elevate the consecrated bread and wine, Body and Blood of the Lord, just as Mary offered him as a child in the Temple, and having consummated the redemption at the foot of the cross, may he return it to the Father as an expiatory offering for our sins. ...
...Priestly formation, finally, has an active dimension oriented to pastoral action. The figure of Mary, her operative presence in the life of the Church, is recognized as the soul of every apostolic or pastoral work. Her spirit of service inspires the priestly ministry as an expression of love and as a response to a received gift. The pastoral challenges of our times demand action inspired by Mary's life.” [Conference of Mons. Norberto Rivera, Archbishop, Primate of Mexico; THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY IN THE LIFE AND MINISTRY OF THE PRIEST] - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_19071997_conri_en.html
I cannot think of a single Protestant denomination which does this.
"Just as in the New Testament"? In a context where it is clear that infants are not baptized, there is no need to explain that no infants were baptized when a "house" got baptized.The young are baptized on the promises of sponsors to rear them in the faith, in other words...just as in the New Testament.
Do you really want to say that female pastors have to do anything with the bulk of Catholic "Maryology" posted by you?Yes, they learned it from their 'mother', who claim 'Mary' as "virgo sacerdos':
Yes. Jesuits long ago infiltrated the seminaries. See "counter-reformation".Do you really want to say that female pastors have to do anything with the bulk of Catholic "Maryology" posted by you?
Yes, they learned it from their 'mother', who claim 'Mary' as "virgo sacerdos':
View attachment 272360 View attachment 272361
“Marked by the priestly piety of the school of Bérulle, Pope Saint Pius X was singularly favourable to the invocation of Our Blessed Lady under the title of Virgo Sacerdos. Already in 1875, Blessed Pius IX had manifested his approval of the same title in a letter addressed to Msgr Oswald Van den Berghe, author of Marie et le Sacerdoce. Saint Pius X was pleased when an Italian translation of this work appeared.
When the Daughters of the Heart of Jesus, founded by Blessed Marie de Jésus Deluil-Martiny, asked for permission to invoke the Mother of God, in their chapels, as Maria Virgo Sacerdos, Saint Pius X wishing to extend the devotion to all the faithful, charged Cardinals Vanutelli and Vivès with composing a prayer that would make this Marian title better known. The prayer appeared, indulgenced by Pope Saint Pius X, on 9 May 1906.
O Mary, Mother of Mercy,
Mother and Daughter of Him who is the Father of mercies
and the God of all consolation (1),
Dispensatrix of all the treasures of thy Son (2),
Minister of God (3),
Mother of Christ, our High Priest,
thou who art both Offerer and Altar together, (4),
Immaculate Temple of the Word of God (5),
Teacher of the Apostles and Disciples of Christ (6),
protect the Supreme Pontiff,
intercede for us and for our priests,
that Jesus Christ the Eternal High Priest
may purify our consciences,
and that we may worthily, and with loving devotion,
approach His sacred banquet.
O Immaculate Virgin,
who not only hast given us Christ the heavenly bread
for the forgiveness of sins (7),
but who art thyself a most acceptable sacrifice offered unto God” (8),
and the glory of priests (9),
and who, as thy most blessed servant Saint Antoninius declares,
“without receiving the Sacrament of Order,
wert full of whatsoever in dignity and grace is given by it”,
thou art therefore rightly acclaimed as “Sacerdotal Virgin” (10).
Look upon us and upon the priests of thy Son,
save us, purify us, and sanctify us,
that we may receive the ineffable treasures of the Sacraments
in a holy manner
and so deserve to obtain
the eternal salvation of our souls. Amen.
Mother of Mercy, pray for us.
Mother of Jesus Christ, the Eternal Priest, pray for us.
Queen of the Clergy, pray for us.
Mary, Sacerdotal Virgin, pray for us.
[1] Richard of Saint Laurence
[2] Saint Bernardine
[3] Saint Bernard of Busto
[4] Saint Epiphanius
[5] Abbot Ludovicus Blosius
[6] Saint Thomas of Villanova.
[7] Saint Epiphanius
[8] Saint Andrew of Crete
[9] Saint Ephrem
[10] Letter of Blessed Pope Pius IX, 25 August 1873
We grant 300 day of indulgence to one who recites this prayer with piety and devotion.
9 May 1906.
Pius P. P. X.” - Prayer to Mary, the Sacerdotal Virgin
““Mary performs her sacrificial functions in two ways: in one way, which is more indirect and less specific, by her providing the sacred victim . . . . and in a more direct, immediate and noble way by concurring with Jesus in this precious sacrifice. While offering the same victim of propriation that belongs to her on the title of her motherhoood . . . . she has become his priestess by offering her divine Son to God for the salvation of the world and thus meriting grace and glory for us by means of this sacrifice, not with the perfect merit and justice which only belongs to Jesus Christ, but with an imperfect merit, a merit of goodwill.” Lazare Dassier (1692), 3e Sermon sur la Purification, l.c. p. 370.
“The gesture with which Christ confided his disciple to his Mother and his Mother to the disciple (16) has defined an extremely close relationship between Mary and the Church. It is the will of the Lord that a Marian note mark the physiognomy of the Church, her road, her pastoral activity; and into the spiritual life of each disciple a "Marian dimension" is infused (17).” …
- “Mary could not escape from Calvary because God had given her the mission to remain there as priest, victim and mediatrix. She had to stay on Calvary, next to the cross and in the heart of her Son. She stood up straight on Calvary and undertook her function as priest. She stood next to the cross and fulfilled the role of a victim. She stayed in the heart of Jesus and acquitted herself of the task of mediatrix: strong in her first task, faithful to her second, devoted in her third . . .Mary had to fulfill her first task, that of being a priest.” St Antonio María Claret (1807 - 1870), Copiosa y vera collección de panegíricos, Rome 1860, vol. 3, pp. 390-391.”
- “If the Saviour, as the Fathers of the Church assure us, is at each Mass the principal priest and the one who offers himself to the Father and who delivers himself up to people, the blessed Virgin shares in this function of the sovereign priesthood, accompanying the oblation and immolation which her Son makes of herself with her own agreement. For it is therefore that St Epiphanius among other praises, calls the Virgin a priest and an altar.” Jean de Machaut (1599 - 1676), Le Thrésor, vol III, pp. 152-153.”
- “Since the will of the Virgin has cooperated with the will of the Son in the realisation of the Eucharist, we can with enough certainty declare and absolutely affirm that she has given us and has offered for us this heavenly bread. In fact, we recognise that the gift which is entrusted to us under these species - - that is : the body and blood of Christ the Lord -- is truly her gift and belongs to her. The divine Epiphanus touched on this reason is his sermon ‘De Laudibus Virginis’.
What could we say or imagine that is more splendid ? He says that the Virgin is a priest in some way in the gift and in the offering of the celestial bread; which is true precisely for this reason that together with her Son she gave and offered [this eucharistic bread], thus realising at the same time both the sacrament and the sacrifice.”
. . . . “It was right that she who was present at the first act of giving, and of whom it was said that she had given and offered together with the Father and the Son, should also be present at the consummation and fulfilment of this donation, to such an extent that we can say that she has in the same way given and offered it (the Eucharist) with her Son. ”
. . “The manner in which the incarnation was achieved in the breast of the Virgin pleased Christ so greatly ...that he invented a new way of repeating it and reiterating it...-... that is, the Eucharist. Ferdinand Chirino de Salazar (1575 - 1646), In Proverbiis, IX, no 148-149, vol. 1, 770D-771A.”
- “Three elements belong to the priesthood and episcopacy: the call, the role of intercession, and sacrifice (Hebr 5, 1) . . . [With regard to intercession] as Son of God Christ has all power over God. Our Lady too, because she is the true Mother of God, has all power over God. And if the prayers and intercessions of Christ are heard on account of the fact that he is the Son, those of Our Lady will not be less heard, and are even heard with more surety because of the fact that she is his Mother. Therefore it is crystal clear that in Mary we find overwhelmingly the second quality required for the dignity of a bishop!” Antonio Vieira (1608 - 1697), Sermon on the Rosary, ib. p. 74.” - http://www.womenpriests.org/mrpriest/m_why.asp
… Every priest knows that Mary, because she is a mother, is the eminent formator of the priesthood, since she is the one who knows how to shape the priestly heart; the Virgin, therefore, knows and wants to protect priests from dangers, exhaustion, and discouragement: with motherly solicitude she watches over the priest so that he may grow in wisdom, age, and grace before God and before men (34). …
...Finally, Mary is the "offering Virgin." The Church has perceived in the heart of the Virgin who carried the Child to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, a willing oblation that transcended the ordinary meaning of the rite (51). "You offer your Son, Holy Virgin, and you present to the Lord the blessed fruit of your womb. You offer the holy victim, pleasing to God, for the reconciliation of us all" (St Bernard). ...
...This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of redemption reaches its culmination at Calvary, where Christ "offered himself, immaculate, to God" (52) and where Mary was beside the cross (53) suffering deeply with her Only Son and associating herself with motherly courage to his sacrifice, adhering lovingly to the immolation of the Victim engendered by her and offering herself as well to the Eternal Father. To perpetuate throughout the centuries the Sacrifice of the Cross, the Savior instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice, memorial of his death and resurrection, and he confided it to his Spouse, the Church... who accomplishes it in union with the Saints in Heaven and, in the first place, with the blessed Virgin, whose ardent charity and unshakable faith she imitates (54).
Therefore the Church, with this same oblationary fervor and spirit lived by Mary, continually exhorts the priest to prepare himself and celebrate the Eucharist, center and summit of his interior life and apostolate. May his priestly hands elevate the consecrated bread and wine, Body and Blood of the Lord, just as Mary offered him as a child in the Temple, and having consummated the redemption at the foot of the cross, may he return it to the Father as an expiatory offering for our sins. ...
...Priestly formation, finally, has an active dimension oriented to pastoral action. The figure of Mary, her operative presence in the life of the Church, is recognized as the soul of every apostolic or pastoral work. Her spirit of service inspires the priestly ministry as an expression of love and as a response to a received gift. The pastoral challenges of our times demand action inspired by Mary's life.” [Conference of Mons. Norberto Rivera, Archbishop, Primate of Mexico; THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY IN THE LIFE AND MINISTRY OF THE PRIEST] - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_19071997_conri_en.html
They did not infiltrate, they founded seminaries, in an attempt to counter protestant seminaries.Jesuits long ago infiltrated the seminaries.
They did not infiltrate, they founded seminaries, in an attempt to counter protestant seminaries.
To suggest an infiltration of protestant seminaries in the time of "counter-reformation" is without any reason.
Really?They did not infiltrate, they founded seminaries, in an attempt to counter protestant seminaries.
To suggest an infiltration of protestant seminaries in the time of "counter-reformation" is without any reason.
Yes, understood, and not implied. What was stated is that the theology of Roman Catholicism is being taught in protestant seminaries. As the Roman Catholic ideology of the 'Mary' priestess is held therein, they also teach this to their "children" (Rev. 17) under another guise of elevation of women to the position of the Head (the man), and thus as Lucifer in Heaven left his own first estate (Jude 1:6; arch offices) to seek Christ's position, and later taught this same thing to Eve, and has been carried down through time through the pagan religions, until it found its way into Rome, and from there, to the daughters.I would be very surprised if Protestants are praying to Mary for anything or relying on her active participation or guidance in anything. ...
I asked for evidence that such things happened in the time of "counter-reformation" (i.e. end of 16th to 18th century, prior to time of "enlightment"), as withinReason has said in post #333.Jesuits today claim to be "on both sides" of any altercation/clash you may find in society. They were given unlimited permission to work both sides in order to accomplish their counter-reformation mission. And this is a common tactic used outside the Catholic church by opposing nations. A clandestine group always operates "on the other side of the barricade".
The reversal of the man being head of the woman would be that God first created woman, than man. Unless of course, if you understand "head" in terms of leadership and dominance, which is alien to the Greek word used there.In effect it is a reversal (and an "anti") of the following:
1Co_11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
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