A question to atheists regarding belief

[inlight12]

Quite clearly, you are a strong black and white thinker and don't like any grey, but grey exists, if people are honest with themselves.

I am 100% certain, in this case grey-area or fractional belief does not exist.

You didn't answer my question, are you 100% certain the God you believe in exists and there is zero percent chance you are wrong about your belief?

Oh you were talking about my faith, then? Yes, I believe that God exists, which is 100% certain in your language.

A 50% certainty of belief would be just that, you have some information that points to belief and some that doesn't and you are honest enough, to acknowledge both.

So for a 50% belief, I would have to have equal number or information with equal cumulative importance, both for and against the existence of God, at the same time. How do people measure these things?

And when I'm 50% believing in God, does my actions which depend on my belief in God, correctly follow the fractional amount which I believe? Say, I'm praying. I bring my hands halfway together. Close my fingers halfway. Bend my head halfway. And pray half of the prayer. Because, I only believe 50%.

 

[variant]

Let me just put two definitions here, first.
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

I have seen many times atheists say that they do not have a belief in god. Rather they have a lack of belief regarding god. So not only do they not believe in a god, the belief or disbelief itself does not exist.

But whenever an agnostics say that they are neither atheists nor theists, and they identify as a separate category from both groups, atheists jump on the moment, asking "But, you must have a personal belief regarding the concept of god, right? You can't have heard the concept of god and not have formed any belief regarding this." In my experience, almost all the atheists who have met an agnostic, who said that he is neither atheist or theist, tried to convince him that he cannot be a separate group from atheists or theists. He can either be agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. (If you are an atheist and acknowledge that agnostics can be a separate group without being atheists or theists, then you need not answer my question.)

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

N.B. By belief in god I mean belief in existence of god.

There is no such thing as someone purely agnostic, you either do or don't have a positive belief that God exists, if you do not you are an atheist.

Lack of belief in God = Atheist.

 

[inlight12]

I don't know if I understand the question, but you are an atheist if you don't positively believe in a God. So that would mean some people who claim to be agnostic are atheists.

I called myself agnostic for a while because I wasn't ready to say I was atheist. Some people find the word 'atheist' a little scary, but I think it's right to accept the truth about yourself.

So, what is the difference between agnostic atheists who disbelieves in God and agnostic atheists who lacks the belief in God?

 

[inlight12]

There is no such thing as someone purely agnostic, you either do or don't have a positive belief that God exists, if you do not you are an atheist.

Lack of belief in God = Atheist.

See my reply above.

 

[variant]

So, what is the difference between agnostic atheists who disbelieves in God and agnostic atheists who lacks the belief in God?

One would be a strong atheist and the other a weak atheist.

 

[inlight12]

One would be a strong atheist and the other a weak atheist.

Which one is which?

 

[variant]

Which one is which?

Lacking a belief in God makes one a weak atheist.

Actively disbelieving in God makes one a strong atheist (assertion that God does not exist).

Agnostic is a position on whether someone things questions on God are known or knowable.

Atheist is a position that someone does not believe in God.

 

[inlight12]

Lacking a belief in God makes one a weak atheist.

Actively disbelieving in God makes one a strong atheist (assertion that God does not exist).

So to be a strong atheist, I have to believe god does not exist and this is not same as claiming that I don't even have a belief regarding god.

BTW, why weak and strong is associated in this manner? Why not the other way around?

 

[variant]

So to be a strong atheist, I have to believe god does not exist and this is not same as claiming that I don't even have a belief regarding god.

Strong Atheism vs. Weak Atheism: What’s the Difference?

Weak atheism, also sometimes referred to as implicit atheism, is simply another name for the broadest and most general conception of atheism: the absence of belief in any gods. A weak atheist is someone who lacks theism and who does not happen to believe in the existence of any gods — no more, no less. This is also sometimes called agnostic atheism because most people who self-consciously lack belief in gods tend to do so for agnostic reasons.

Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all. Strong atheism is sometimes called “gnostic atheism” because people who take this position often incorporate knowledge claims into it — that is to say, they claim to know in some fashion that certain gods or indeed all gods do not or cannot exist.

 

[Paradoxum]

So, what is the difference between agnostic atheists who disbelieves in God and agnostic atheists who lacks the belief in God?

Saying there is no God (or perhaps that there is probably no God) is called 'strong' or 'positive' atheism (because there is a belief).

Saying 'I don't believe in God' is 'weak' or 'negative' atheism (because there is no belief).

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism is a claim to knowledge, e.g. I don't know that god/s exist.

Atheism is a statement of belief, e.g. therefore I don't believe in god/s.

 

[quatona]

Let me just put two definitions here, first.
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Ok.

I have seen many times atheists say that they do not have a belief in god. Rather they have a lack of belief regarding god. So not only do they not believe in a god, the belief or disbelief itself does not exist.

But whenever an agnostics say that they are neither atheists nor theists, and they identify as a separate category from both groups, atheists jump on the moment, asking "But, you must have a personal belief regarding the concept of god, right? You can't have heard the concept of god and not have formed any belief regarding this."

That´s not my experience, and I have been following these discussions - which come up pretty much every week here - for more than ten years.

In my experience, almost all the atheists who have met an agnostic, who said that he is neither atheist or theist, tried to convince him that he cannot be a separate group from atheists or theists.

Just to get a clearer picture: Has that been your experience three times, ten times, hundreds or thousands of times?

He can either be agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. (If you are an atheist and acknowledge that agnostics can be a separate group without being atheists or theists, then you need not answer my question.)

I am an agnostic atheist, and in my understanding these two categories have nothing to do with each other (in the way your above definitions describe).
However, since in my understanding everyone who doesn´t believe in a God or lacks belief in a God is per definition (the one you provided) an atheist, I would indeed say you are either a theist or an atheist. Tertium non datur.

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

If you believe in a God, you are a theist. Everybody else is an atheist.
"Agnostic" is a different category altogether.

 

[quatona]

So, what is the difference between agnostic atheists who disbelieves in God and agnostic atheists who lacks the belief in God?

As you says: the first actively disbelieves in God, the latter lacks belief in God. I don´t seem to understand the question.

If you are not quite sure what a person you are talking to actually means when calling himself "atheist" or "agnostic", you can always ask him/her.
(E.g. there is an armada of people who feel that "agnostic" means the middle ground between theism and atheism).

Every abstract terminology leaves some space for interpretation.

 

[quatona]

So to be a strong atheist, I have to believe god does not exist and this is not same as claiming that I don't even have a belief regarding god.

The "even" is what´s preventing you from understanding.

BTW, why weak and strong is associated in this manner? Why not the other way around?

Because "I lack belief in your claim" is a weaker statement than "I believe your claim is wrong" (in that the first doesn´t necessitate the belief that the other person´s claim is wrong).

 

[inlight12]

That´s not my experience, and I have been following these discussions - which come up pretty much every week here - for more than ten years.

Just to get a clearer picture: Has that been your experience three times, ten times, hundreds or thousands of times?

This has not happened here, but I used to search many online forums and social networks and I've seen same atheists flip back and forth between these two positions at least more than ten times.

My confusion has been with the two possible scenarios in the definition of atheist and the lack of distinction it offers between the two.

It has been perfectly cleared up by variant's post below.

link

Weak atheism, also sometimes referred to as implicit atheism, is simply another name for the broadest and most general conception of atheism: the absence of belief in any gods. A weak atheist is someone who lacks theism and who does not happen to believe in the existence of any gods — no more, no less. This is also sometimes called agnostic atheism because most people who self-consciously lack belief in gods tend to do so for agnostic reasons.

Strong atheism, also sometimes referred to as explicit atheism, goes one step further and involves denying the existence of at least one god, usually multiple gods, and sometimes the possible existence of any gods at all. Strong atheism is sometimes called “gnostic atheism” because people who take this position often incorporate knowledge claims into it — that is to say, they claim to know in some fashion that certain gods or indeed all gods do not or cannot exist.

 

[inlight12]

So in conclusion,

We can revise the definitions as,
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
weak atheist - a person who lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
strong atheist - a person who disbelieves the existence of God or gods.

So we can make a chart for all possibilities,

1)agnostic theist         | 2)agnostic weak-atheist   | 3)agnostic strong-atheist
*believes existence       | *believes existence       | *believes existence
 of God cannot be known   |  of God cannot be known   |  of God cannot be known
*believes in God          | *lacks any belief in God  | *disbelieves in God

4)gnostic theist          | 5)gnostic weak-atheist    | 6)gnostic strong-atheist
*claims to have knowledge | *claims to have knowledge | *claims to have knowledge
 of existence of God      |  of non-existence of God  |  of non-existence of God
*believes in God          | *lacks any belief in God  | *disbelieves in God

Clearly case no 5 is impossible. If one claims to have any knowledge regarding existence or non-existence of God, he will form a belief.

 

[Eudaimonist]

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

I think that agnostics who claim that they are neither theists nor atheists are confusing a knowledge stance with a belief-status. Those are two very different issues.

Those agnostics probably think that atheism represents a knowledge stance regarding the existence of gods. It does not. It's only a belief-status. Does one believe or not? Those agnostics either believe or they don't. Period.

When they "sit on the fence", they are adopting a knowledge stance, and think that they somehow avoid both poles. They might very well have an interesting knowledge stance, but it doesn't mean that they neither believe nor don't believe in the existence of gods. Rather, they neither know nor don't know that gods exist.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dave Ellis]

Let me just put two definitions here, first.
agnostic - a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.
atheist - a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

I have seen many times atheists say that they do not have a belief in god. Rather they have a lack of belief regarding god. So not only do they not believe in a god, the belief or disbelief itself does not exist.

But whenever an agnostics say that they are neither atheists nor theists, and they identify as a separate category from both groups, atheists jump on the moment, asking "But, you must have a personal belief regarding the concept of god, right? You can't have heard the concept of god and not have formed any belief regarding this." In my experience, almost all the atheists who have met an agnostic, who said that he is neither atheist or theist, tried to convince him that he cannot be a separate group from atheists or theists. He can either be agnostic atheist or agnostic theist. (If you are an atheist and acknowledge that agnostics can be a separate group without being atheists or theists, then you need not answer my question.)

So I want to ask the atheists. Which one is it, 'lack of belief of god can exist' or 'there must be a belief or disbelief regrading god'?

N.B. By belief in god I mean belief in existence of god.

Agnostics who claim they are neither Theistic or Atheistic do so because they usually have a misunderstanding of the definitions of both.

Actually, everyone on earth is either a theist, or an atheist. You either positively believe a god exists, or you don't. If you are unsure if a god exists, then you likely don't hold a positive belief one exists (although it is possible to be an agnostic theist, they are just rarer).

In other words, the vast majority of self defined agnostics are also by definition atheistic. Either way, it doesn't matter all that much how they choose to label themselves.

 

[juvenissun]

I am an atheist towards personal Gods and my position is; the concepts of personal Gods (specifically Christian God) can not be reconciled with the reality of the world as we know it and is highly likely to not exist, IMO.

In regards to a universal, non personal God, I would say I am more agnostic.

So:

There is a(?) god, but he or she is not YOUR god?

I think polytheism such as the Buddhism or the Hinduism might suit you the best.