A question pertinent to ALL believers not just SDA... All are welcome

[Loveaboveall]

I have recently been reading a book by Jim Hohnberger. His perspective is so refreshing and his words seem to emanate with what we need to hear today in our world... Here is a quote with a question to us all. (It's about People, pg 32,33) He relates a story he had at a speaking engagement at Camp. A older gentlement walked up to him and challenged him with this...

"I've got five questions to ask you." Well, I said setting my suitcase down, on the pathway, "go ahead". "Number one, what is the one text from the entire bible that is the foundation of our faith?"

I looked at Tom who said, "I can do all things through Christ."

"No" he snapped, as though irritated because Tom quoted this vibrantly confident pronouncement of faith. He then fixed his gaze upon me and commanded, "You tell me, Jim Hohnberger."

"Acts 17:28: 'For in Him we live and move and have our being.'"

"your'e wrong" he barked and then proceeded to quote a proof text for a denominational doctrine.

"Whats your second question?" I asked

"Did Christ take upon Him the fallen or unfallen nature?"

"Whats your third question?"

"Was the atonement completed at the cross?"

"And your fourth?"

"Are babies born sinners?"

"what is your fifth?"

"will we continue sinning until Christ comes?"

I had been praying through this entire encounter for that God would give me His grace and His wisdom because I don't have all the answers. Now I turned to him. "I have just one question for you before I answer your other questions. Brother, do you believe I can be a conservative christian, active in outreach and witnessing activities, take the gospel to the whole world, answer all five questions correctly, and still have not living experience with Jesus Christ, not be changed into His likeness, and not go to heaven?"







Wow, what a response. It reminds me of when Jesus would rebuke the pharisees trying to trap him into a corner. He did not directly answer their question, He went to the heart of the matter, their "hearts".

What is your answer to his question. Does it matter if you "know" the whole truth if it does not benefit you. Better yet, How do you know you have a living experience with Jesus Christ? And are you sure you have this. Can we get so caught up on this forum with "issues" whether great or small that our whole time is consumed with the "issues" and not Jesus?

From when I first joined the forum it was evident by the "attitude" of many of the participants that they did not have this "living experience with Jesus Christ". I am not here to judge anyone, and I can confess to you that I have been just as much a sinner in this regard as the next person. I want/wanted to "prove" what is right about God. Does God need us to "prove" anything? or does He need us to express love in all things?

Think about it...

 

[NightEternal]

Hostile old guy, wasn't he? Well, if he was that rude to me and shot these questions at me, I would have no problem telling him what I think. If he didn't like my responses, to bad, so sad. He could declare me a heretic and we would go our separate ways.

In fact, I will answer them right now:

"Did Christ take upon Him the fallen or unfallen nature?"

Unfallen.

"Was the atonement completed at the cross?"

Yes.

"Are babies born sinners?"

They are born with selfish, fallen, sinful natures.

"will we continue sinning until Christ comes?"

We are sinful until glorification.

Jim is wrong if he doesn't think these issues are extremely important. They are the foundation and heart of the kind of Gospel we will accept.

 

[djconklin]

>>"Did Christ take upon Him the fallen or unfallen nature?"

>Unfallen.

When you are presented with these kinds of question you should respond with a question because invariably they have over-simplified things. In this case, you ask: physical or spiritual?

 

[sentipente]

>>"Did Christ take upon Him the fallen or unfallen nature?"

>Unfallen.

When you are presented with these kinds of question you should respond with a question because invariably they have over-simplified things. In this case, you ask: physical or spiritual?

Humans have a human nature. Spirits have a spirit nature.

 

[sentipente]

Night, does this mean that if a baby dies it has no hope of glory?

 

[NightEternal]

No. Christ's baptism stands in place for all those who are not able. Of course, this is also why we practice baby dedications.

The baby has not yet reached the age of acountability or the ability to conciously accept Christ as its Savior. So, if it dies in its infantile state, the merits and benefits of Christ's death will be provided for the child.

IMO of course.

 

[sentipente]

This is fraught with problems. First, it turns infant mortality into a blessing rather than a problem to be confronted. Parents are actually doing harm to their children by raising them past the age of accountability. Second, it makes a mockery of the work of the church. Under present Christian theology, the church actually takes away from the kingdom of heaven by allowing humans to move into a phase where they are no longer covered by the merits of Jesus' baptism. What sounds good as a sermonic sound bite does not look very good when it is viewed under the harsh lights of reality.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

No. Christ's baptism stands in place for all those who are not able. Of course, this is also why we practice baby dedications.

This way off from the original post. But Night what you are saying seems pretty strange. When you think about it because your view here is that because of a "sacrament" God will do a particular thing. This is one of the problems predicated by such ideas an penal theory of atonement. Where God does something different because an outside element causes Him to behave differently.

In this instance it is a baptism of another so God can save a baby. Won't it be better to see the love of God as the primary element in all this, or the concept that the omnipotent God always does the right thing? Probably the big draw of this sacramental theology is that we don't really trust God so we want to create some kind of binding legal circumstances which we can attribute to God. Usually it seems however we create a human distortion and we create a bigger problem much like the opening post alludes to. The idea that we must believe a particular set of doctrines rather then develop a relationship of trust with God.

 

[NightEternal]

"Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit.' " John 2:12

Fair enough. What, then, do the two of you interpret the above verse to mean? Also, what do you believe the purpose of the ordinance of baptism is? Why do we even bother to do it?

Does one need to be baptised in order to gain eternal life?

The SDA church has taken the position that, indeed, you must be.

 

[sentipente]

"Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit.' " John 2:12

Fair enough. What, then, do the two of you interpret the above verse to mean? Also, what do you believe the purpose of the ordinance of baptism is? Why do we even bother to do it?

Does one need to be baptised in order to gain eternal life?

The SDA church has taken the position that, indeed, you must be.

This is where the discussion gets interesting. It is not for a lack of baptism that our lives are in turmoil. We are in turmoil because we are not united. Sin introduced division into the kingdom of heaven. People were being baptised before Jesus began his ministry. Baptism was obviously their way of becoming members of a group. There was no reason why Jesus would stop using it when people joined his group. But the baptism had no relevance in terms of salvation. What matters is whether you recognize that the human race is one and we have one Ruler who rules over all. The multiple baptisms that we engage it borders on the disgraceful.

 

[Jon0388g]

"Number one, what is the one text from the entire bible that is the foundation of our faith?"

I personally like this question! Is there such a text?

What is your answer to his question. Does it matter if you "know" the whole truth if it does not benefit you.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Know Christ, you know the Truth.

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9



Jon

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

"Jesus answered, 'I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit.' " John 2:12

If the above quote were about being baptised in water then the thief on the cross next to Christ could not be saved. I think most of the commentary on this particular verse sees the water as being our natural birth, that process which is first begun by the gush of water as the mucus plug breaks. Of course it is not really water as neither was the so called water that flowed from Jesus' side when punctured with a spear but close enough for the ancients. The spirit is the rebirth as Jesus described to Nicodemus the meaing of being born again or born from above.

There is also another way to look at this famous command:

Matt 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Think about the way the Bible very frequently uses couplets, two ways of saying the same thing. Jesus all authority is mine make disciples, Baptizing them by the name (character or knowledge of the Godhead) teaching them and I will be with you.

If you look at it they could very easily be the same idea for each phrase, make disciples, submerse in the in name of God, teach them what Jesus commanded.

That of course does not mean that the baptismal ceremony does not have meaning but it removes the idea that it is necessary for salvation, putting in in the proper context as a tool used in teaching about God rather then a mystical ceremony to secure salvation.

 

[honorthesabbath]

I personally like this question! Is there such a text?

IMHO-this sums up the gospel message--the foundation of our faith....

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is Written in Scripture : Water and blood flowed - there is no reason to even think otherwise.
[not socalled water, but water; and blood]

 

[Loveaboveall]

Okay,

Did anyone actually read the post and understand it? Ya'll are doing the exact same thing the old gray haired guy did! Can't you see it?

Night Eternal, I pray that you will one day experience God's love fully, because once you do, you will understand what Jim was speaking of. You will have love for every person, even the one's you disagree with. You will never turn your back on them and bid them good riddance. Jesus came to save not to condemn. He commanded us to love others as He loved us. That means even our enemies and especially the ones who disagree with us. Oh how I wish everyone here could understand how much God loves them and also how much God loves the person that they disagree with. Jesus died just as much for your enemies as he did for you. You are no more special then them.

May God instill in each of our hearts the longing to experience Him in a way that we never have before. It WILL require great sacrifice for the devil has innumerable "issues" to distract us with. But, God is waiting, drawing, yearning for us to come to Him so that He can bestow on us immeasurable amounts of blessings that will fill our hearts with peace and love for all mankind. If even a small portion of christians understood this, Jesus love would be spread across this world and Jesus would be here before you knew it!

I plead with each of you to meditate on the words of Jesus in John 13-17. He wants so much to abide in us, He is knocking at the door of our hearts.

You may say, "He IS in my heart". The one litmus test is this... Do you hold any ill will towards ANYONE? If so there is a part of your heart that you have not opened to Him. Think about it....

 

[sentipente]

It is Written in Scripture : Water and blood flowed - there is no reason to even think otherwise.
[not socalled water, but water; and blood]

Are you suggesting that there were two separate streams side by side, one of water and one of blood?

 

[sentipente]

Night Eternal, I pray that you will one day experience God's love fully, because once you do, you will understand what Jim was speaking of. You will have love for every person, even the one's you disagree with. .

I would think you have enough work judging your ownself without taking on the additional responsibility of judging another.

 

[NightEternal]

Amen. It certainly isn't me who is putting all those who disagree with me on ignore.

You see what I posted as a lack of love. That is preposterous. It is the reality I have experienced in dealing with those who think like this old man.

You make your views known to them, they declare you a heretic and you both go your own ways. Sometimes there will never be theological agreement and it's best to just disagree and walk away. Why is that an 'unloving' thing to do? Is it better that I stay and argue to try to convince him my positions are correct?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are you suggesting that there were two separate streams side by side, one of water and one of blood?

Most simply:
John 19:31
"Then the Jews, since it was the day of Sabbath preparation, and so the bodies wouldn't stay on the crosses over the Sabbath (it was a high holy day that year), petitioned Pilate that their legs be broken to speed death, and the bodies taken down. So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man crucified with Jesus, and then the other. When they got to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they didn't break his legs. One of the soldiers stabbed him in the side with his spear. Blood and water gushed out."

Still simply, a little more fully:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Geneva]Evidences of the Death of Christ

The eyewitness John keenly observed two unusual things that happen at the crucifixion of Jesus. These facts made a deep impression on him as he watched the crucifixion taking place.
The crucifixion took place on the day of preparation for the Passover festival that would begin at 6 p.m. The Jewish authorities felt an urgency to get the bodies off the crosses and buried before the sun went down.
“So that the bodies might not remain on the crosses on the Sabbath (for the Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away” (John 19:31; cf. Deut. 21:22-23).
The legs of Jesus were not broken as was the case of the other two men crucified that day, and in His case a Roman soldier seeing He was already dead thrust a spear deep into His side and out flowed water and blood. Either to make doubly sure that Jesus was dead, or out of hate he picked up a spear and thrust it deeply into the side of Jesus (John 19:32-34). A real man, with a real human body, with real human blood, died on the cross that afternoon in Jerusalem.
Prophecy was fulfilled in a most unusual manner. One Scripture said the Savior’s bones must not be broken (Exodus 12:46; Num. 9:12; Ps. 34:20), and another said His body must be pierced (Zech. 13:1).
These Roman soldiers would have done just the opposite. They came to break the legs of Jesus as they had the other two men, but there was no point in breaking his legs since He was already dead.
Moreover, they had no intention of piercing the side of Jesus with the spear. To John’s utter amazement that is exactly what the soldiers did.
Why was this observation so important to John?
God intervened and caused it to happen as His Word said it would centuries before. God overruled the circumstances and caused it to happen according to His will. The enemy was unconsciously executing God’s counsels. A sovereign God was in control at Calvary. The soldiers had received instructions to break the legs of Christ, but this had not been done. The soldier had not received the order to pierce the Savior’s side, but this he did (John 19:34).
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[sentipente]

If you call that simple I don't want to see complicated.