A question on iconography

choirfiend said:

The icon type is fine. The depiction of God the Father goes against the Church's teaching. It's simply not acceptable, even though you may like it. That certainly doesn't make it right.

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My bishop is a good bishop. His blue vestments have a two-men-and-a-dove icon on the back. No one's saying that this is the ideal way to represent God the Father, but it isn't heretical.

Kursk Root Icon:

I believe the depiction of God the Father and/or the Spirit as anything other than in the likeness of a dove or flame in those instances where it is appropriate was condemned even as the depiction of Christ was affirmed at the councils dealing with iconography. Therefore, this type of iconography is incorrectly being representationally heretical. Michael, any specifics on this? If the thread gets closed before you see this, I'd appreciate a response through PM. Thanks!

I see both sides here. I suppose it depends on how we understand "heresy". On the one hand, if it imparts wrong teaching... it would seem to be heretical for it is departing from the Church's teaching. Icons are a cornerstone of how the CHurch has both imparted spiritual understanding and gained in spiritual understanding.. both good and bad. If it's fruit is bad, then I would think it is heretical. It is true that in the West (and in many Orthodox countries heavily affected by western thought) we tend to think of God the Father as an old Man in a throne. Yet, I didn't realize how wrong this was until I became Orthodox. I am not saying that I believed in an entirely different God, but my understanding what "God the Father" meant was seriously blurred by this... well.. heretical image I had in my head.

At the same time, I think heresy is, more than anything, defined by the heart and the mind. The icon is heretical in so much that it passes on bad understanding. I say, the most important thing is to amke sure the people are educated that these icons, while perhaps imparting many spiritual truths, also impart some bad theology. The next step comes in replacing these icons with something... Orthodox. But this takes time due to financial concerns (as Michael pointed out, icons are NOT cheap) and the mere fact that the icon has been with the parish for generations.. even centuries. It's easy for us to sit here in TAW and speculate as to what this or that Churtch should ideally do... and we may even be right, in theory (I for one agree that ideally, these icons should be taken out of the church - but I'm not sure that they should be burned... seems sacrilege to me... but that's for a bishop to decide), but if we don't actually know what it is like to pray every day for the return of the Tzar (who gave you this icon) or to grow up seeing this icon everyday thereby growing spiritually close to it and so or knowing that it is choosing between spending the money to cover or replace the icon in question when you have the poor suffering all around you (those who have been to Eastern European countries know how important the Churches are for simply eating and staying clothed) the icon is problably among the least of your priorities.

I think the Greek Church in America made the most practical decision: all new icons must be in byzantine style. This way over time the heretical or western style icons are slowly and organically displaced by new Orthodox and theologically sound ones. May not be ideal.. but realistic.

Matrona said:

My bishop is a good bishop. His blue vestments have a two-men-and-a-dove icon on the back. No one's saying that this is the ideal way to represent God the Father, but it isn't heretical.

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Anything that is a direct contradiction of the very words of Christ is heresy.

Xpycoctomos said:

I think the Greek Church in America made the most practical decision: all new icons must be in byzantine style. This way over time the heretical or western style icons are slowly and organically displaced by new Orthodox and theologically sound ones. May not be ideal.. but realistic.

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I think that's the most practical thing also, but dissing a wonderworking icon is most uncool. Wasn't the Kursk Root icon the one St. Seraphim was healed in front of as a child?

But as Marjorie pointed out, God can work miraculously through imperfect things. Us, a donkey and so on. I believe that icons are holy rather because of the prayer and faith that surrounds it as well as the one who painted it. The icon itself is imperfect but the man or woman who painted it may very well have been very holy and very close to God as well as the people who prayed in front of it. But that shouldn't mean that the didactics of the icon cannot (or should not) be criticised if it is indeed imparting bad knowledge. I kind of think of it like I do saints. They are honored as Saints not because they were perfect (and especially not because their theology was perfect) but because they offered something special and worthy of praise and honor to the Church (theologically, virtuously, special protection from evil forces etc...). Surely many of our most revered saints did not have perfect teaching, but they are certainly Saints.

John

Matrona said:

My bishop is a good bishop. His blue vestments have a two-men-and-a-dove icon on the back. No one's saying that this is the ideal way to represent God the Father, but it isn't heretical.

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Michael the Iconographer said:

Anything that is a direct contradiction of the very words of Christ is heresy.

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I would have to side with Michael that the depiction of the Father as an old man is technically heretical. But this certainly in no way impl;ies that your bishop is not a most excellent bishop and far less that he is in any way heretical. And I don't think anyone would try to imply that. I mean, all of us here have some glimpses of heresy in our beliefs or we may have some icon at home that isn't completely uncanonical... but there comes a point when you just gotta say "God understands and the world and life still goes on the same."

Xpycoctomos said:

but there comes a point when you just gotta say "God understands and the world and life still goes on the same."

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Where's your conciliar basis for that?

Matrona said:

Where's your conciliar basis for that?

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Didn't you forget..I proclaimed myself a bishop soime months ago... along with others here. We also decided together that Baklava will now be given away free by all Greek parishes in the US (we're working on Canada).

Xpycoctomos said:

Didn't you forget..I proclaimed myself a bishop soime months ago... along with others here. We also decided together that Baklava will now be given away free by all Greek parishes in the US (we're working on Canada).

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Oh... okay. In that case, I proclaim myself an Ecumenical Council, and that trumps all of you pansies.

Oh noes! The ecumenicals!

Xpycoctomos said:

I would have to side with Michael that the depiction of the Father as an old man is technically heretical. But this certainly in no way impl;ies that your bishop is not a most excellent bishop and far less that he is in any way heretical. And I don't think anyone would try to imply that. I mean, all of us here have some glimpses of heresy in our beliefs or we may have some icon at home that isn't completely uncanonical... but there comes a point when you just gotta say "God understands and the world and life still goes on the same."

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I just noticed today we have that icon as the top icon on the iconostasis... But honestly, if they replaced that one, they'd have to replace the whole iconostasis... Right now we're focusing more money our new monastery than on icons...

Xpycoctomos said:

I would have to side with Michael that the depiction of the Father as an old man is technically heretical. But this certainly in no way impl;ies that your bishop is not a most excellent bishop and far less that he is in any way heretical. And I don't think anyone would try to imply that. I mean, all of us here have some glimpses of heresy in our beliefs or we may have some icon at home that isn't completely uncanonical... but there comes a point when you just gotta say "God understands and the world and life still goes on the same."

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I never said that Matrona's Bishop was himself a heretic, however, and my own parish where I was chismated is equally guilty of this, that does not mean that the icon is not bad and does not need replaced. While I doubt anyone is going to be damned to Hades over these icons, they are still none-the-less heretical and do need replaced. If I were independently wealthy I would make it my goal in life to see that every one of these icons is replaced and the bad copies are destroyed. And I honestly mean that.

Khaleas said:

I just noticed today we have that icon as the top icon on the iconostasis... But honestly, if they replaced that one, they'd have to replace the whole iconostasis... Right now we're focusing more money our new monastery than on icons...

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That makes sense, IMHO. I know a parish that has a Theotokos icon in the wrong colors, as well as in the wrong place in the church. It makes me wrinkle my nose when I'm over there to see it, but it's nothing to write their bishop about, for heaven's sake.

And I know another one that has an Eastern Cath crucifix icon thing. Big deal. I should be thinking about the Person whose feet are on that footrest, not worrying about whether or not the footrest is tilted to my liking.

Did any of you bother to read this article?

I posted a link to it earlier.

I think it shoots out of the water the whole notion that the icons in question are heretical.

It seems to me those few folks here who have declared them heretical have offered scant support for their opinions.

If your mind is at all open to learning something on this issue, read the article above.

Maximus said:

Did any of you bother to read this article?

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FWIW, I did. I thought it presented a reasonable argument.

Maximus said:

Did any of you bother to read this article?

I posted a link to it earlier.

I think it shoots out of the water the whole notion that the icons in question are heretical.

It seems to me those few folks here who have declared them heretical have offered scant support for their opinions.

If your mind is at all open to learning something on this issue, read the article above.

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Matrona said:

FWIW, I did. I thought it presented a reasonable argument.

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I agree.

Yet we still have folks here confidently declaring that all icons that depict God the Father are heretical, be they miraculous or not and even if they adorn some of the most holy Orthodox cathedrals in all of Christendom.

Amazing.

Maximus said:

I agree.

Yet we still have folks here confidently declaring that all icons that depict God the Father are heretical, be they miraculous or not and even if they adorn some of the most holy Orthodox cathedrals in all of Christendom.

Amazing.

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I think the main issue in a lot of those Cathedrals is money... while Russia is gaining ground, it's still poor. At least for now they've spent the money on getting the churches going and renovated to the point that you can even have services in them (something that is ongoing still).
My parish is of mainly Russian descent - the founders didn't have much but they collected enough money to have, honestly, a gorgeous iconostasis. It might not be the style most prefer today and it has that two men and a bird... but it cost them a whole lot more than money... blood, sweat, tears, lives. A lot of our active members are 3-5 gen of those people. Plus in our case, we couldn't get something similar style to substitute that icon with. Honestly if I took a poll in our parish asking if we have a heretical icon on the iconostasis I'm positive that 99% would answer no. They would have no clue. And honestly, if this thread hadn't come up, I wouldn't have known. Sure, I know the scriptures saying that no one has seen God... but that icon is probably the one I look at least. We have a beautiful Theotokos in the ceiling behind it and some other gorgeous ones.
Funny thing is that a lot of Orthodox churches have the da Vinci Last Supper exact copy as their Mystical Supper and no one cares...