A Question on Adventism

k4c said:

It has everything to do with him and the thread because of his discrediting what the SDA teach and believe. The fact that he discredits the word of God means we shouldn't use his comments to form an opinion.

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If the SDA church was teaching the Word of God, the contrast I illustrated between the Bible and Ellen White's influence would not exist. But it does exist, and equating a belief system with what the Bible teaches is a conclusion you have reached contrary to the evidence.
There are two major areas where Adventism departs from Biblical Christianity:

• Adventism apologizes for an event in 1844 that never took place, and even William Miller rejected Adventism's spin on the model he introduced, and concluded an error when 1844 didn't herald the second advent. As Ellen White wrote in 1884, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith was the declaration, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"" {4SP 258.1}. The apology for this non-event was first the Shut Door doctrine, later replaced by the Investigative Judgment. In the current model of Adventism's apology for 1844, Christ's atonement is not considered complete and sufficient, and SDA Fundamental belief #24 states "In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry". Hebrews 10:10 and Romans 5:11 state that atonement is a finished offering never to be added to. The apology for 1844 permeates Adventist theology to modify the core fundamentals of the Gospel in a destructive manner.
• Adventism apologizes for the sabbath ordained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, and never acknowledges our redemption from that first covenant. As Ellen White wrote, "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. This is a classic soteriology based on works, a departure from the Biblical Gospel that affirms "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" in Romans 11:32. In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon, and the temporal nature of the first covenant (ten commandments) is disregarded. The message contained in the Biblical Gospel of Christ's redemption and adoption as His purchased possession is missing in Adventism.

These are contrasts that can't be ignored.

k4c said:

If you don't believe me you will have to take the time yourself to search his recent posts and you will see he does not receive the Bible as God's inspired, inerrant word.

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Bugkiller and I have tag-teamed on the GT forum here, and we share a great many conclusions. He already knows what I post, and has generally agreed with what I bring to the table.

VictorC said:

If the SDA church was teaching the Word of God, the contrast I illustrated between the Bible and Ellen White's influence would not exist. But it does exist, and equating a belief system with what the Bible teaches is a conclusion you have reached contrary to the evidence.

There are two major areas where Adventism departs from Biblical Christianity:

• Adventism apologizes for an event in 1844 that never took place, and even William Miller rejected Adventism's spin on the model he introduced, and concluded an error when 1844 didn't herald the second advent. As Ellen White wrote in 1884, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith was the declaration, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"" {4SP 258.1}. The apology for this non-event was first the Shut Door doctrine, later replaced by the Investigative Judgment. In the current model of Adventism's apology for 1844, Christ's atonement is not considered complete and sufficient, and SDA Fundamental belief #24 states "In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry". Hebrews 10:10 and Romans 5:11 state that atonement is a finished offering never to be added to. The apology for 1844 permeates Adventist theology to modify the core fundamentals of the Gospel in a destructive manner.
• Adventism apologizes for the sabbath ordained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, and never acknowledges our redemption from that first covenant. As Ellen White wrote, "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. This is a classic soteriology based on works, a departure from the Biblical Gospel that affirms "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" in Romans 11:32. In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon, and the temporal nature of the first covenant (ten commandments) is disregarded. The message contained in the Biblical Gospel of Christ's redemption and adoption as His purchased possession is missing in Adventism.

These are contrasts that can't be ignored.

Bugkiller and I have tag-teamed on the GT forum here, and we share a great many conclusions. He already knows what I post, and has generally agreed with what I bring to the table.

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I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your quotes. I don't follow EGW, I follow the Bible. Now if EGW lines up with the Bible then praise God. From what you quoted I don't see where you can prove it to be false.

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now, if the bug man agrees with your position on the authority of Scripture then I guess we shouldn't put too much value on his posts either.

k4c said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your quotes. I don't follow EGW, I follow the Bible. Now if EGW lines up with the Bible then praise God. From what you quoted I don't see where you can prove it to be false.

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That sounds pretty good, but I seem to remember you have a fixation on the sabbath, preferring it over God's redemption from the covenant that contained it.

If you follow the Bible, then it should be safe to assume that you have concluded nothing of import happened in 1844, and the sabbath was a temporal shadow that led us into God's rest, after which there is no sabbath that a Christian needs to be concerned about.

k4c said:

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now, if the bug man agrees with your position on the authority of Scripture then I guess we shouldn't put too much value on his posts either.

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You have a obsession about the people who participate here, and don't seem to enjoy the learning experience a discussion forum offers to us. As we grow in the knowledge of the Gospel, we will attain the unity of the one faith that was given to us. That is the goal I aspire to. Would you like to join me in that goal?

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head----Christ----
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Our unity insulates us from "every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting".

This isn't about Victor.
This isn't about bugkiller.
We desire Jesus.

I think we are getting away from the point here... this was originally a thread about a family matter, about whether a person should allow their children to attend a church of a different denomination in order to help reconcile a family difference and in order to facilitate contact with a grandparent. The complication is that the person has reason to feel uneasy about this particular denomination.

It's turned into a thread about the circumstances in which a person does (or doesn't have credibility) if they do not profess to believe the Bible in a literal sense. A worthwhile discussion, I think, but better on another thread. I don't have time to start it immediately but will start it in a few hours time, or will post there if someone else starts it first.

VictorC said:

That sounds pretty good, but I seem to remember you have a fixation on the sabbath, preferring it over God's redemption from the covenant that contained it.

If you follow the Bible, then it should be safe to assume that you have concluded nothing of import happened in 1844, and the sabbath was a temporal shadow that led us into God's rest, after which there is no sabbath that a Christian needs to be concerned about.

You have a obsession about the people who participate here, and don't seem to enjoy the learning experience a discussion forum offers to us. As we grow in the knowledge of the Gospel, we will attain the unity of the one faith that was given to us. That is the goal I aspire to. Would you like to join me in that goal?

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head----Christ----
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Our unity insulates us from "every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting".

This isn't about Victor.
This isn't about bugkiller.
We desire Jesus.

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I do believe something happened is 1844. My belief regarding 1844 is a little different then the SDA. I believe that when God cleanses the sancturay He is cleaning His people and when He cleans His people He is correcting their thinking. 1844 were very dark times and much of God's truth was already distorted by the beast system. In 1844 God began cleansing His sanctuary by pouring out many truths on the people of God who had the ears to hear. The Sabbath was one of those truths. At the same time the devil was forming a very powerful system of belief that would draw millions of people away from creation truth. That false belief system is the theroy of evolution. Once you draw people away from creation you draw them away from a Creator. No Creator, no God.

I have an obsession with truth and since Jesus is the truth then I have an obsession with Jesus.

I totally agree with having a unity of the faith but that faith has to be based on truth. Rejecting the Sabbath came years after Jesus and the Apostles and did not originate with them.

There is a godly standard for living after the gospel. That godly standard is seen in God's law and was expressed in Jesus' life of whcih He is our example. We will live like Jesus, including keeping the Sabbath holy, when God writes His law on our hearts and gives us His Spirit to help us to walk in them.

In all of Jesus' teaching, regarding the Sabbath, He was referring to it as a litteral day. Many people have spirutalized themselves right out of living the godly life according to righteousness.

Keeping the Sabbath is not sin, in the same way, keeping the rest of the commandments are not sin, they are good, holy and right and if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. By the way, Jesus said that, not EGW.

k4c said:

As in all denominations you have the extreem and the nonextreem.

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Very true.

It is also true that there are a few denominations that believe (as does SDAism) that they alone have God's remnant teachings for the world. Further, there are individual SDA churches that systematically shun those who leave their denomination to attend a different church (this may not happen in every location).

BFA

StormyOne said:

Wes, yes indoctrination begins early.... so if you want to avoid it, spending time with relatives is fine, but you may want to monitor closely what they are being exposed to in sabbath school.... I took my kids out of their sabbath school classes when a well meaning teacher thought the kids needed to know about being persecuted, hunted and killed for believing in "the sabbath."

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Excellent advice, Stormy.

All 4 of my children's grandparents are "historic SDA." Since my children are small, they spend time with their grandparents but they do not attend their church. When my kids are older, we will relax our approach. It is important to me that my children eventually understand what their grandparents believe. After all, this understanding will help them to better understand the family environment into which they were born. As they grow, I want my kids to make informed choices.

These are very personal decisions!

BFA

VictorC said:

I am usually cautious to attribute motives when it isn't necessary to.

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Well said. I respect this approach.

The person has been dead for a long time. It is the writings that continue to place people under the veil, not the person.

BFA

wes2010 said:

Now then, back to the issue of my children; I am still caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe it is my duty as a loving husband to encourage my wife to make amends with her Mother. Being sort of an idealist, I believe that the "family bond" can overcome almost anything. Am I wrong in that assumption?

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Man, does my heart go out to you. Your words resonate with me in more ways than you know.

I am a former SDA and I know a number of other formers. It has been helpful to share our stories and it has been remarkable to notice the striking similarities. Although there are no guarantees, it appears that family relationships often heal, but they often don't do so quickly.

My wife and I stopped attending an SDA church about 5 1/2 years ago. Our relationships with SDA family members have been slowly improving (and the rate of improvement has varied). However, we have had to realize that things will never be as they were. We have a new dynamic that is built upon the understand that we disagree on some beliefs that our parents view as salvational. As a result, we all live with the reality that our parents have concluded (and are mourning the possibility) that their children and grandchildren are hopelessly lost. It is sad to watch our parents mourn so needlessly.

We serve a God who brings new life to the lifeless, hope to the hopeless and grace to the hopelessly lost. Continue to praise Him for His marvelous grace and trust Him to resolve that which you are powerless to fix!

I also want my Mother-in-law to be part of my children's lives.

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Good. That is as it should be.

My fear is that her love and support is contingent on the fundamental beliefs within her faith.

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Perfect love casts out fear. My parents' love and support is conditional. However, when I'm being honest, I'll admit that the love and support that I have for my own children is at times conditional. I am much less than a perfect parent and I don't want to hold my parents to a higher standard than I hold myself.

I guess I'm trying to rationalize this by allowing the children to attend the church now, because they are not at a point where their critical thinking skills are developed.

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Whether or not they attend, the important thing is that you are pursuing your own relationship with Jesus Christ and that you are moving toward a deeper understanding of who He is. Your children will come to know who you are, what you believe and what your motives and priorities are. One day, they will make an educated choice based on all of the information they receive. Will they be drawn to man-made God who bases salvation on the things we do (or the things we will one day do) or will they be drawn to the God described in the Bible who offers salvation as a free gift or will they be drawn to no God at all (or one of a 1,000 other options)? We don't know the answers to these questions, but I trust that God is faithful.

In other words, my heart tells me it's not harmful now, but my brain tells me I need to put a stop to this. What do you think?

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There are no black-and-white answers here. I could not presume to understand your situation. I only have limited understanding regarding my own situation. However, I can tell you that (1) I know very well the nature of the specific SDA church my parents attend for I attended there for 34 years, (2) based on what I know to be true, I've concluded that it is not appropriate for my 8 year old and my 4 year old to attend my parents' church. With that said, there will come a day when my children need to have more space to make their own decisions. I hope to offer them that space when the time is right.

Please take my words with a grain of salt. I am just one guy who--like you--is navigating some confusing waters.

May God richly bless you! And welcome to CF!

BFA

k4c said:

I do believe something happened is 1844. My belief regarding 1844 is a little different then the SDA. I believe that when God cleanses the sancturay He is cleaning His people and when He cleans His people He is correcting their thinking. 1844 were very dark times and much of God's truth was already distorted by the beast system. In 1844 God began cleansing His sanctuary by pouring out many truths on the people of God who had the ears to hear. The Sabbath was one of those truths. At the same time the devil was forming a very powerful system of belief that would draw millions of people away from creation truth. That false belief system is the theroy of evolution. Once you draw people away from creation you draw them away from a Creator. No Creator, no God.

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Hebrews 7:25 tells us that Jesus is our intercessor in the present tense, while Hebrews 9-10 describes the rite pertaining to the heavenly sanctuary in the past tense, a completed act when this epistle was written. The sanctuary was already cleansed, and Jesus had already performed the hilasterion atonement for us at the mercyseat in the Holy of Holies. 1844 did nothing to change this, and is a date held as a vestige from Millerism. To my knowledge, only Jehovah's Witnesses and seventh-day Adventists claim any significance to 1844, and these two groups share their origins in Millerism. The Bible has nothing to support this date, including Daniel 8:14.

k4c said:

I have an obsession with truth and since Jesus is the truth then I have an obsession with Jesus.

I totally agree with having a unity of the faith but that faith has to be based on truth.

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I agree.
But the truth we appeal to comes from Scripture, and not the extra-Biblical doctrines not supported in Scripture. Those additions and modifications are the "distinctives" that causes Adventism to consider itself the "remnant" divided apart from Biblical Christianity.

k4c said:

Rejecting the Sabbath came years after Jesus and the Apostles and did not originate with them.

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Return to the two areas of departure from Biblical Christianity that I listed earlier in this thread, and you will see that this isn't the case. Entrance into God's rest is the reality found in Christ's redemption, of which the sabbath was only a shadow. Once we have the reality, the shadow loses its purpose just as a map does once we have reached the destination it was designed to lead us to. God's rest originates in the creation account, and Biblical Christianity is more faithful to that account than Adventism is.

k4c said:

There is a godly standard for living after the gospel. That godly standard is seen in God's law and was expressed in Jesus' life of whcih He is our example. We will live like Jesus, including keeping the Sabbath holy, when God writes His law on our hearts and gives us His Spirit to help us to walk in them.

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Jesus stated He would fulfill the law, something no mortal has the capability to do. That was done with His propitiation, an acceptable offering without spot or blemish. That is an "example" only arrogance seeks to repeat by those who do not realize that His offering once for all is sufficient to reconcile us to God. Jesus gave us entrance into God's permanent sabbatismos rest, and there exists no call to return to the temporal sabbaton shadow that has expired.

k4c said:

In all of Jesus' teaching, regarding the Sabbath, He was referring to it as a litteral day. Many people have spirutalized themselves right out of living the godly life according to righteousness.

Keeping the Sabbath is not sin, in the same way, keeping the rest of the commandments are not sin, they are good, holy and right and if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. By the way, Jesus said that, not EGW.

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Paul wrote in Galatians 6:13 "not even those who are circumcised keep the law", and it is that law that Adventism has inserted in place of the commandments of God in the new covenant. If you return to the citation where Jesus said "keep the commandments", you will discover that this was spoken during the tenure of Moses, before Jesus became "the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant" as Hebrews 9:15 states. The bottom line is that Adventism has disposed of the commandments of God, to replace them with the first covenant we have been delivered from.

That is a major point that keeps Adventism "distinctive", and that theological system codified in a church is what prevents those adhering to those man-made doctrines from acheiving the unity of the one faith entrusted to us (Jude 1:3). The "Sabbath truth" originated with James White in about 1850, and Ellen placed her claim of "I saw" on it make a permanent doctrine out of it. It isn't the truth, and as long as you don't examine the Bible for the Gospel narrative contained in it, you will remain divided apart from those you yearn to share the one faith with.

Byfaithalone1 said:

(2) based on what I know to be true, I've concluded that it is not appropriate for my 8 year old and my 4 year old to attend my parents' church. With that said, there will come a day when my children need to have more space to make their own decisions. I hope to offer them that space when the time is right.

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I think that's a safe course of action. I would submit that a right time would be when your children (Wes) are able to process new information in a cognitive manner.

wes2010 said:

Do the members of fundamental SDA churches attempt to indoctrinate young children?

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There is a reason why SDAism:

• Spends such an extraordinary amount of money on maintaining its own system of education.
• Maintains SDA-specific youth programs such as Pathfinders.
• Has its own record label and roster of recording artists.
• Has its own youth-targeted magazines.
• Stresses the importance of not being unequally yolked with non-SDAs.
• Offers its own "SDA only" dating services.
• Stresses the value of a medical degree (i.e. so you can work in an SDA hospital and an "SDA only" environment).
• Promotes guilt and fear through teachings such as "the National Sunday law," the "close of probation" and the alleged connection between the seventh-day sabbath and the mark of the beast.

BFA

I remember being a kid in my SDA Sabbath school and learning things like the government is building concentration camps in the desert that they are gonna send the SDA's to very soon when they pass a Sunday law. I heard tons of stuff about the Pope and the US government putting marks on our hand and head for going to church on Saturday. These marks wouldn't let us buy food so we were gonna run to the mountains if we could. No one seemed very prepared for any of this so it was basically like we were just waiting around to be killed for going to church on Saturday. I also remember some discussions about the 144,000 and if that was literal. Like maybe only 144,000 of the SDA's are actually good ones and the rest are fakers. Was a serious discussion one Saturday when I was a kid.

Get your kids out. Now.

Kira Light said:

I remember being a kid in my SDA Sabbath school and learning things like the government is building concentration camps in the desert that they are gonna send the SDA's to very soon when they pass a Sunday law. I heard tons of stuff about the Pope and the US government putting marks on our hand and head for going to church on Saturday. These marks wouldn't let us buy food so we were gonna run to the mountains if we could. No one seemed very prepared for any of this so it was basically like we were just waiting around to be killed for going to church on Saturday. I also remember some discussions about the 144,000 and if that was literal. Like maybe only 144,000 of the SDA's are actually good ones and the rest are fakers. Was a serious discussion one Saturday when I was a kid.

Get your kids out. Now.

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Run for your lives...

Byfaithalone1 said:

There is a reason why SDAism:

• Spends such an extraordinary amount of money on maintaining its own system of education.
• Maintains SDA-specific youth programs such as Pathfinders.
• Has its own record label and roster of recording artists.
• Has its own youth-targeted magazines.
• Stresses the importance of not being unequally yolked with non-SDAs.
• Offers its own "SDA only" dating services.
• Stresses the value of a medical degree (i.e. so you can work in an SDA hospital and an "SDA only" environment).
• Promotes guilt and fear through teachings such as "the National Sunday law," the "close of probation" and the alleged connection between the seventh-day sabbath and the mark of the beast.

BFA

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Did you know that it's biblical to teach your kids in the way they should go? I like the word, brain washing better because it paints a better picture of what needs to be done to get all the wordly garbage out.

k4c said:

Run for your lives...

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You got plenty of food and water ready for when the Pope starts marking heads and hands? Gonna head to the hills or hold your ground and just go down swinging?

Kira Light said:

You got plenty of food and water ready for when the Pope starts marking heads and hands? Gonna head to the hills or hold your ground and just go down swinging?

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Check it out...

Persecution

k4c said:

Did you know that it's biblical to teach your kids in the way they should go?

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I do.

BFA

Kira Light said:

I remember being a kid in my SDA Sabbath school and learning things like the government is building concentration camps in the desert that they are gonna send the SDA's to very soon when they pass a Sunday law. I heard tons of stuff about the Pope and the US government putting marks on our hand and head for going to church on Saturday. These marks wouldn't let us buy food so we were gonna run to the mountains if we could. No one seemed very prepared for any of this so it was basically like we were just waiting around to be killed for going to church on Saturday. I also remember some discussions about the 144,000 and if that was literal. Like maybe only 144,000 of the SDA's are actually good ones and the rest are fakers. Was a serious discussion one Saturday when I was a kid.

Get your kids out. Now.

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When I was a pre-teen, my sabbath school teacher provided mock trials during which I (and my peers) was asked to defend our sabbath keeping or face the electric chair. On another sabbath, we were taught the types of berries, roots, etc. that weren't poisonous and other "survive in a cave" skills. My teacher read books to us such as The Appearing in which end time events are depicted and sabbath keepers are brutalized and tortured.

I'm not suggesting that my reality is the same reality experienced by all SDA pre-teens, and I acknowledge that I attended a particularly "historic" SDA church. This is the same church that my parents still attend. This is the same church that my children do not attend.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 said:

When I was a pre-teen, my sabbath school teacher provided mock trials during which I (and my peers) was asked to defend our sabbath keeping or face the electric chair. On another sabbath, we were taught the types of berries, roots, etc. that weren't poisonous and other "survive in a cave" skills.

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True - and Christianity teaches about a God who killed almost all of His children with a global flood and is sending a bunch to hell at some point in the future. The distortions in Adventism are just a unique flavor of the distortions in much of Christianity.

If we believe that God is violent, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to point fingers at people who believe God is violent differently. (not directing that toward you BFA)

I will have to say the berry thing has been most handy when hiking and backpacking, however.