A Question of Obviously Extreme Importance

[SQLservant]

Just kidding!

I've got a queseion instead regarding the common Evangelical practice in the Eucharist, namely the use of little shot glasses rather than a chalice or similar vessel. When did it begin, and why?

 

[Tangible]

Do Evangelicals even have the Eucharist? As for shot glasses, they came in probably about the same time as grape juice, mid to late 1800's.

 

[SQLservant]

Do Evangelicals even have the Eucharist? As for shot glasses, they came in probably about the same time as grape juice, mid to late 1800's.

Well, obviously I wasn't using its proper technical name, "the Purely Symbolic and Totally Optional Ritual of Christian Obedience, Commonly Called the Lord's Supper."

I just find it odd that when you've divorced the idea of communion from Communion, you'd go further and take out the idea of expressing unity with each other too. No wonder it's not done often in those groups; it's had all the significance taken out of it.

Doesn't Scripture describe specifically partaking of "one cup"? Or am I thinking of "one loaf" and applying it by extension?

 

[Tangible]

1 cor 10: 16 - The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Cup, singular.

 

[revanneosl]

The individual cups first came into use in the 1880s. Writers at the time argued for their use for three reasons

• hygiene
• pastoral worries about spilling a common cup
• speed of administration

 

[Cappadocious]

 

[SQLservant]

Wow... I'd heard people who wanted to get ex-Evangelicals mad talk about those before, but I never thought they were actually real.

 

[Knee V]

The individual cups first came into use in the 1880s. Writers at the time argued for their use for three reasons

• hygiene
• pastoral worries about spilling a common cup
• speed of administration

I would have to take issue with those writers at that time:

1) When alcoholic wine is used, hygiene is not much of an issue.
2) More is likely to be spilled when everyone has their own. When there is one common cup controlled being handled by one person, fewer accidents are likely to happen.
3) If speeding through worship is a priority, then I can see why they would like that.

 

[SQLservant]

I would have to take issue with those writers at that time:

1) When alcoholic wine is used, hygiene is not much of an issue.
2) More is likely to be spilled when everyone has their own. When there is one common cup controlled being handled by one person, fewer accidents are likely to happen.
3) If speeding through worship is a priority, then I can see why they would like that.

Watch it there, pal. It almost sounds like you're saying the Lord didn't need anyone to second-guess him millennia after the fact!

 

[Albion]

I would have to take issue with those writers at that time:

1) When alcoholic wine is used, hygiene is not much of an issue.
2) More is likely to be spilled when everyone has their own. When there is one common cup controlled being handled by one person, fewer accidents are likely to happen.
3) If speeding through worship is a priority, then I can see why they would like that.

A couple of additional thoughts...

The CLAIM was made about hygiene. And that was indeed the main reason for the change. Whether or not it's a valid consideration is another matter. And hygiene wasn't as good or understood in that era, so I can understand.

Scientifically speaking, the common chalice is swimming with germs after a few communicants have used it, but the priests and communicants don't seem to be infected any more often than Evangelicals using individual cups. Make out of that whatever you want.

BTW, the peel-off item pictured with the 1-2-3 set-up a few posts back was a new idea a little while ago, did not catch on, and has not proven to be very successful. The usual method is to pass individual cups followed by the bread. It doesn't have the symbolism of the common cup, but I personally am more offended by the use of grape juice than whether it's a common chalice or individual cups.

Speeding through worship is the reason the Roman Catholic church gave up communion rails, kneeling at them, and the use of a common cup. So it's not just the Evangelicals.

 

[Kristos]

I figured it was germaphobes

 

[Knee V]

Additionally, I find the idea that we will catch diseases from the Eucharist to be a little on the blasphemous side (with the exception of "taking it unworthily", which has nothing to do with germs).

 

[Kristos]

Additionally, I find the idea that we will catch diseases from the Eucharist to be a little on the blasphemous side (with the exception of "taking it unworthily", which has nothing to do with germs).

Yeah, sometimes I don't know what to think on this. I know of gluten intolerant people who receive regularly without any problem, yet they can't eat a bit of bread without feeling ill. I have also heard people assert that the alcohol and the hot water "kill" the germs, but by the time the last person is communed, the water is not very warm - definitely not hot enough sanitize anything and I know priests who use very little wine in their chalice and don't seem to get sick anymore than priests that use copious amounts. So perhaps the material explanation is just that, but isn't it really a material question? Does the transcendent truth of the Eucharist defy nature even though it doesn't perceivable alter it's forms? That's really what you are saying right? The "germs" are still there, but they don't make you sick. Why not? Is it because sickness is by nature a consequence of the fall and the Eucharist by definition is a victory over the principalities and power of this world and thus render them powerless? But then there is the whole "worthily" aspect. A person could be harmed by the Eucharist if they partake unworthily, which would seem to indicate that it has more to do with the person than the Eucharist itself. But I suppose this doesn't have anything to do with "germs" - the germs could still be rendered powerless, and the "harm" could be from the incompatibility of the profane and the holy in heart. Anyway...

 

[Knee V]

Yeah, sometimes I don't know what to think on this. I know of gluten intolerant people who receive regularly without any problem, yet they can't eat a bit of bread without feeling ill. I have also heard people assert that the alcohol and the hot water "kill" the germs, but by the time the last person is communed, the water is not very warm - definitely not hot enough sanitize anything and I know priests who use very little wine in their chalice and don't seem to get sick anymore than priests that use copious amounts. So perhaps the material explanation is just that, but isn't it really a material question? Does the transcendent truth of the Eucharist defy nature even though it doesn't perceivable alter it's forms? That's really what you are saying right? The "germs" are still there, but they don't make you sick. Why not? Is it because sickness is by nature a consequence of the fall and the Eucharist by definition is a victory over the principalities and power of this world and thus render them powerless? But then there is the whole "worthily" aspect. A person could be harmed by the Eucharist if they partake unworthily, which would seem to indicate that it has more to do with the person than the Eucharist itself. But I suppose this doesn't have anything to do with "germs" - the germs could still be rendered powerless, and the "harm" could be from the incompatibility of the profane and the holy in heart. Anyway...

Pretty much.

 

[Tangible]

Speeding through worship is the reason the Roman Catholic church gave up communion rails, kneeling at them, and the use of a common cup. So it's not just the Evangelicals.

My old LCMS church had a rail and we knelt for communion. Our new LCMS church has no rail and we stand to receive. I miss my old church's way.

 

[Kristos]

It is interesting that the EO have a very different practice when it comes to kneeling. Kneeling is seen as very penitential in nature, we kneel a lot during Lent, but not on Sunday - actually, I can't think of a single Sunday when we kneel (and before someone says - what about Pentecost - that is actually Sunday night Vespers, so liturgically it's Monday) So we stand a lot. If Communion takes 10 minutes, that doesn't seem like a big deal to me...

 

[ptomwebster]

Additionally, I find the idea that we will catch diseases from the Eucharist to be a little on the blasphemous side (with the exception of "taking it unworthily", which has nothing to do with germs).

Two questions for you k, doesn't your church use the individual wafers for bread, and do regular members partake of the wine or only the priests?

 

[Knee V]

Two questions for you k, doesn't your church use the individual wafers for bread, and do regular members partake of the wine or only the priests?

The "eastern" practices wrt communion are a little different from those of western Europe. One is that we use leavened bread. We bake our own loaves, and they are typically round, and a couple inches tall, perhaps around 6 inches in diameter, or thereabouts. The bread is broken/cut into pieces during the liturgy. Generally with each piece that is cut off a prayer is said for someone or something specific. We also add some hot water to the wine. Before it is distributed to everyone it is combined together into a single cup and then served with a spoon.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

My old LCMS church had a rail and we knelt for communion. Our new LCMS church has no rail and we stand to receive. I miss my old church's way.

Tanigble, the LCMS church that I was a member of back in college had a horribly designed church. The seat arrangement looked like this...

Altar
++++++++++ Rail
___________ Open space
||||| __ ||||| Choir pews
||||| __ ||||| Choir pews

==== __ ==== Pews
==== __ ==== Pews

Only 12-14 people could fit at the communion rail, and there was not enough room between the choir pews for both an incoming line and an outgoing line at the same time. So the order was

File in
Commune
File Out
Next group file in
Commune
File out

It was HORRIBLE... I think a Palm Sunday service we sang all five communion hymns from TLH including all 15 verses of 315 and we still had time for more organ hymns.

Fortunately (?) they had a fire while I was there and they redesigned the seating.

 

[Albion]

Tanigble, the LCMS church that I was a member of back in college had a horribly designed church. The seat arrangement looked like this...

Altar
++++++++++ Rail
___________ Open space
||||| __ ||||| Choir pews
||||| __ ||||| Choir pews

==== __ ==== Pews
==== __ ==== Pews

Well, that's the historic style. Mine's the same way.