A question for the deep biblical thinker

[From Glory to Glory]

Hi all,

I've always wondered...the people whom Jesus forgave while on the earth--were they saved before He died and was resurrected? Let's say Jesus forgave their sin, but then they died that day before they could sin again. Did they go to heaven right away, or did they have to wait in Sheol till Jesus fulfilled His mission? If they were not yet saved, then why not, considering Jesus forgave them?

Just wondering how they could be forgiven of their sins, but yet not yet saved before Jesus was crucified.

Thanks!

Pam

 

[JamesBurrow]

Well, personally, I believe that even if you were to die today, you would still have towait until Judgement day, but I think there are others who believe otherwise.
But my belief is that until the Rapture happens, no believer is judged beyond whether they get into heaven or not. They do not go to Heaven, but instead they wait until Christ calls upon all the believers and then he will bestow to us those glories we earned during our life. A good book that has this same principal is The Bema. I can't remember the writer, but you should try to get ahold of it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, personally, I believe that even if you were to die today, you would still have towait until Judgement day, but I think there are others who believe otherwise.
But my belief is that until the Rapture happens, no believer is judged beyond whether they get into heaven or not. They do not go to Heaven, but instead they wait until Christ calls upon all the believers and then he will bestow to us those glories we earned during our life. A good book that has this same principal is The Bema. I can't remember the writer, but you should try to get ahold of it.

I have just been doing an exegesis in the book of Romans where I have been looking at Abraham's faith, which was accounted as righteousness before God. This means that Abraham was saved through His faith and obedience to God, thousands of years before Christ died on the cross. I believe that God gave him the title deed of his salvation, which was made real the moment that Jesus was raised from the dead.

This would be the same for the people who believed on Jesus during His earthly ministry. They were believing on Him in the Hope that they would be saved when He came into His kingdom. Remember the thief on the cross beside Jesus who asked Him to remember him when He came into His kingdom. Jesus told him that this very day he would be with Him in Paradise. Jesus could say that because the faith of the thief counted him as righteous before God in the same way that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness.

All the saints of the OT testament who believed on God, were looking for and hoping in the Messiah for their ultimate salvation. Their salvation came into force as soon as Jesus was risen from the dead. As soon as the resurrection took place, God was able to legally justify those who believed in Him, from the very first person in the world, to the person who died believing in the last few seconds before the resurrection.

After the resurrection of Christ, then people accepted Christ as saviour, basing their faith and hope and the now finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. Paul said that if Jesus had not risen from the dead, no one would have been saved (1Corinthians15), therefore the resurrection of Christ is the act that saves people who believe on Christ.

Therefore the OT believers were looking forward to the Messiah and basing their faith and hope on a future event which they believed was going to happen one day.

NT believers are basing their hope and faith on an event that happened 2000 years ago, and look forward to that they when they will be raised into newness of life at the Second Coming of Christ - an event in the future that we look forward to with strong hope.

The OT believers who now are aware of what Jesus did on the cross are awaiting the Second Coming as well when they will be raised up in newness of life to be with the Lord in glory.

 

[Isaiah4031nc101]

Absent from the body is present with the Lord

 

[chilifrankplate]

Oscar's right, Jesus had to be raised from the dead first. He had to pay the price for us all, old testament saints, and new alike. He was the first born of many at the moment He was raised.

 

[Svt4Him]

I have just been doing an exegesis in the book of Romans where I have been looking at Abraham's faith, which was accounted as righteousness before God. This means that Abraham was saved through His faith and obedience to God, thousands of years before Christ died on the cross. I believe that God gave him the title deed of his salvation, which was made real the moment that Jesus was raised from the dead.

This would be the same for the people who believed on Jesus during His earthly ministry. They were believing on Him in the Hope that they would be saved when He came into His kingdom. Remember the thief on the cross beside Jesus who asked Him to remember him when He came into His kingdom. Jesus told him that this very day he would be with Him in Paradise. Jesus could say that because the faith of the thief counted him as righteous before God in the same way that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness.

All the saints of the OT testament who believed on God, were looking for and hoping in the Messiah for their ultimate salvation. Their salvation came into force as soon as Jesus was risen from the dead. As soon as the resurrection took place, God was able to legally justify those who believed in Him, from the very first person in the world, to the person who died believing in the last few seconds before the resurrection.

After the resurrection of Christ, then people accepted Christ as saviour, basing their faith and hope and the now finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection. Paul said that if Jesus had not risen from the dead, no one would have been saved (1Corinthians15), therefore the resurrection of Christ is the act that saves people who believe on Christ.

Therefore the OT believers were looking forward to the Messiah and basing their faith and hope on a future event which they believed was going to happen one day.

NT believers are basing their hope and faith on an event that happened 2000 years ago, and look forward to that they when they will be raised into newness of life at the Second Coming of Christ - an event in the future that we look forward to with strong hope.

The OT believers who now are aware of what Jesus did on the cross are awaiting the Second Coming as well when they will be raised up in newness of life to be with the Lord in glory.

Abraham was not in heaven.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Abraham was not in heaven.

I don't know what to make of your reply.

We do know that Abraham was reckoned by God as totally righteous before Him because of his faith and obedience. This means that he was as saved as you and me.

But that is a mute point now, because of the resurrection of Christ, he is now in the same place where all the dead in Christ are right now. Wherever that is.

I know this, that he is not where the ungodly people are right now.

 

[From Glory to Glory]

I don't know what to make of your reply.

We do know that Abraham was reckoned by God as totally righteous before Him because of his faith and obedience. This means that he was as saved as you and me.

But that is a mute point now, because of the resurrection of Christ, he is now in the same place where all the dead in Christ are right now. Wherever that is.

I know this, that he is not where the ungodly people are right now.

I think what he means is that those who died before Christ, but were future heirs of salvation through faith, went to a place called Sheol (sp?), which was actually not in heaven, but in a part of Hades for the righteous dead. Those saints went to heaven only after Christ's decension and then He took them with Him upon His ascension.

So, again, I ask...why didn't those who died before Christ's death, but after He forgave their sins, go to heaven until Christ died?

 

[chilifrankplate]

because they were still sinners. There was no sacrifice that could totally atone for their sins. Otherwisethere would have been no purpose for Jesus coming

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think what he means is that those who died before Christ, but were future heirs of salvation through faith, went to a place called Sheol (sp?), which was actually not in heaven, but in a part of Hades for the righteous dead. Those saints went to heaven only after Christ's decension and then He took them with Him upon His ascension.

So, again, I ask...why didn't those who died before Christ's death, but after He forgave their sins, go to heaven until Christ died?

I need to know where you got the idea that they sent to a place called Sheol. Jesus referred to a place called Paradise, where He was going, and the thief was going to go there too.

Heaven as we know it, may not exist yet. The new heavens and new earth have still to be created by God.

It's all very vague. All we really know is that there is a place reserved for the righteous dead, and they are there until the Second Coming of Christ and the Day of Judgment, after which God will create a new environment, ie: the New Jerusalem that is spoken about in Revelation.

The OT saints will have gone to this place probably called Paradise, and would have been joined by those who died in Christ after His resurrection. I guess that He would have revealed Himself to the OT saints as the Son of God before His incarnation. The account of the Transfiguration gives support for this. Obviously Jesus had ongoing contact with Moses and Elijah since they left this earth.

The Transfiguration brings up some interesting thoughts, because it shows a merging of the spiritual world with the physical world. Moses and Elijah entered the physical world through the 'portal' and joined Jesus in a conference, witnessed by Peter and John.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that there is a great gulf between where the ungodly are and the righteous are. Lazarus is said to be in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man is in hell. It suggests that Abraham and Lazarus are in a good place where there is water, because the Rich Man asked for water to give him relief.

There is a lot that we don't know about this. No-one can give definitive answers about this. All we can do is to discuss possibilities.

 

[Svt4Him]

I need to know where you got the idea that they sent to a place called Sheol. Jesus referred to a place called Paradise, where He was going, and the thief was going to go there too.

Heaven as we know it, may not exist yet. The new heavens and new earth have still to be created by God.

It's all very vague. All we really know is that there is a place reserved for the righteous dead, and they are there until the Second Coming of Christ and the Day of Judgment, after which God will create a new environment, ie: the New Jerusalem that is spoken about in Revelation.

The OT saints will have gone to this place probably called Paradise, and would have been joined by those who died in Christ after His resurrection. I guess that He would have revealed Himself to the OT saints as the Son of God before His incarnation. The account of the Transfiguration gives support for this. Obviously Jesus had ongoing contact with Moses and Elijah since they left this earth.

The Transfiguration brings up some interesting thoughts, because it shows a merging of the spiritual world with the physical world. Moses and Elijah entered the physical world through the 'portal' and joined Jesus in a conference, witnessed by Peter and John.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that there is a great gulf between where the ungodly are and the righteous are. Lazarus is said to be in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man is in hell. It suggests that Abraham and Lazarus are in a good place where there is water, because the Rich Man asked for water to give him relief.

There is a lot that we don't know about this. No-one can give definitive answers about this. All we can do is to discuss possibilities.

We can know where Abraham's bosom is, or rather where it's not. It is not heaven. There was water there, but only on one side. Those who were righteous were on one side, the rich man was on the other. They were not with God, as Jesus took these saints with Him when He enptied the grave.

 

[Jesusong]

The idea that paradise was a segment of sheol is found in Luke 16:19-31. The reasoning for this is due to the fact that sin hadn't been fully atoned before Christ's sacrifice on the cross. The atonement in the Old Testament only covered the sin, it did not remove it. Once the atonement of Christ was complete, the believer from both the Old and New Testaments can now go to heaven, and stand before the throne of God.

 

[Isaiah4031nc101]

I need to know where you got the idea that they sent to a place called Sheol. Jesus referred to a place called Paradise, where He was going, and the thief was going to go there too.

Heaven as we know it, may not exist yet. The new heavens and new earth have still to be created by God.

It's all very vague. All we really know is that there is a place reserved for the righteous dead, and they are there until the Second Coming of Christ and the Day of Judgment, after which God will create a new environment, ie: the New Jerusalem that is spoken about in Revelation.

The OT saints will have gone to this place probably called Paradise, and would have been joined by those who died in Christ after His resurrection. I guess that He would have revealed Himself to the OT saints as the Son of God before His incarnation. The account of the Transfiguration gives support for this. Obviously Jesus had ongoing contact with Moses and Elijah since they left this earth.

The Transfiguration brings up some interesting thoughts, because it shows a merging of the spiritual world with the physical world. Moses and Elijah entered the physical world through the 'portal' and joined Jesus in a conference, witnessed by Peter and John.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that there is a great gulf between where the ungodly are and the righteous are. Lazarus is said to be in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man is in hell. It suggests that Abraham and Lazarus are in a good place where there is water, because the Rich Man asked for water to give him relief.

There is a lot that we don't know about this. No-one can give definitive answers about this. All we can do is to discuss possibilities.

It is true that we dont know alot about hings of this matter, Paul said we look through a glass dimly. I do how ever believe that when Christ died at He decended before He ascended mean if set the captives free. I believe the gulf that was mentiond in the rich man lazarus is now gone. Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord. I think that before the Christ had come the OT saints did go to a place called paradise. But I also believe that when He died and at His resurection He did go get them This being called the first resurection the next will be at the coming of Christ at the rapture. The Bible also tells us that at the time of the resurection that there were many that had witnessed dead folk walking around.

 

[From Glory to Glory]

I need to know where you got the idea that they sent to a place called Sheol. Jesus referred to a place called Paradise, where He was going, and the thief was going to go there too.

Heaven as we know it, may not exist yet. The new heavens and new earth have still to be created by God.

It's all very vague. All we really know is that there is a place reserved for the righteous dead, and they are there until the Second Coming of Christ and the Day of Judgment, after which God will create a new environment, ie: the New Jerusalem that is spoken about in Revelation.

The OT saints will have gone to this place probably called Paradise, and would have been joined by those who died in Christ after His resurrection. I guess that He would have revealed Himself to the OT saints as the Son of God before His incarnation. The account of the Transfiguration gives support for this. Obviously Jesus had ongoing contact with Moses and Elijah since they left this earth.

The Transfiguration brings up some interesting thoughts, because it shows a merging of the spiritual world with the physical world. Moses and Elijah entered the physical world through the 'portal' and joined Jesus in a conference, witnessed by Peter and John.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that there is a great gulf between where the ungodly are and the righteous are. Lazarus is said to be in the bosom of Abraham, and the Rich Man is in hell. It suggests that Abraham and Lazarus are in a good place where there is water, because the Rich Man asked for water to give him relief.

There is a lot that we don't know about this. No-one can give definitive answers about this. All we can do is to discuss possibilities.

Hopefully, this will help:

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html


Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire
Matthew McGee
Now let's get into a little more detail by becoming familiar with some Hebrew and Greek words that are key to understanding this topic.
Sheol (Hebrew) - It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. It is the same as the Greek word "Hades", which we will look at in a moment. Prior to Jesus Christ's resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death. It is translated "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.
Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves. One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven. Many (probably not all) of the Old Testament saints were resurrected into their immortal bodies at that time (Matthew 27:51-53). Since then, the souls of all of the saved people go directly to Heaven when their bodies die. The lost people still go to Sheol and join the lost people of the Old Testament in torment on one side of the canyon when they die. The other side of Sheol formerly known as Abraham's Bosom has been vacant since Jesus Christ led the saints within it to heaven after His resurrection.

The English word "Hell" refers to a place of eternal punishment for the wicked. Its meaning does not distinguish between the two separate places for the wicked to be punished, one temporary for the soul, and the other, the Lake of Fire, permanent for the soul and body. Nor does its meaning include the place of comfort for saints prior to Christ's resurrection. In normal English conversation, "Hell" is used only in the negative sense, with no saved people ever going there.
This caused some inadequate translations of "Sheol" and "Hades". Often these words are translated "Hell", which, as just explained, is rather ambiguous and non-descriptive. In many other places "Sheol" and "Hades" are translated as "grave", but the grave is only the place for the body after death, not the place for the soul. This confusion often occurs when the verse refers to a righteous man going to "Sheol", such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham's Bosom.
Hades (Greek) - It is identical to Sheol (Hebrew). It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. Hades is translated "Hell" 10 times and "grave" once by KJV. It is the place for the soul, not the body.

Gehenna (Greek, but originally from a Hebrew name) - translated "Hell" all 12 times in KJV It is the permanent place for destruction of the "... soul and body ..." (Matthew 10:28). It is a place of "... fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:45). In most of the references, it is clear from the context that those who enter Gehenna, do so in their bodies, not merely as bodiless souls. For this to happen, it must occur after the resurrection of the damned at the great white throne of judgment. Therefore, Gehenna is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation 19 and 20. It is presently uninhabited, but the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into it at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 19:20). One thousand years later, Satan will be cast into it (Rev 20:10) and will be followed shortly by the lost people of all previous time periods (Revelation 20:15). They will all enter Gehenna together, in there resurrected bodies, where they will remain in torment for all eternity.
The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it.

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place" (Jeremiah 7:31-32). Here we see that in the Valley of Hinnom is a place called "Tophet" whose name means "place of fire".

"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isaiah 30:33).

limne pur (Greek) - "lake of fire" occurs 4 times, all in Revelation 19 and 20. This is Gehenna, into which the resurrected damned are cast. Limne means "lake" and is translated as such all 10 times it occurs by the KJV. Pur means "fire" and is translated so 73 times by the KJV while being translated "fiery" once.

Other key terms
tartaroo (Greek) - Refers to "Tartarus" and only occurs once in 2 Peter 2:4 where it is translated "hell" "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment ...." This is probably a separate place from Hades, and may be a place only for fallen angels. There are no Biblical references to people going there.
grave (English) - The place for the fleshly body after death, sepulcher. It is not the abode of the soul or spirit.

abussos (Greek) - Abyss. It is translated "bottomless pit" 5 times, "deep" twice, and "bottomless" twice by KJV. It is where Satan will be locked up for the 1000 years of Christ's reign on earth. This is thought by many to be the same as the impassable gulf described in Luke 16:26.
chasma (Greek) - a gaping opening, chasm, or gulf. It is translated "gulf" in its only occurrence in Luke 16:26, where it is the canyon separating the torment and comfort sides of Hades.

Abraam kolpos (Greek) - Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22). Abraam is translated "Abraham" all 73 times. Kolpos is translated bosom 5 times and creek once (Acts 27:39).

paradeisos - Paradise. It is translated "paradise" all 3 times by the KJV. "Paradise" is not the English translation of any other Greek word in scripture. First we hear the words of the thief and Jesus Christ on their crosses in Luke 23:42-43, "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." In 2 Corinthians 12:4, Paul tells how he was "... caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." In Revelation 2:7, Jesus told the church of Ephesus "... To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." The tree of life is also mentioned in Revelation 22:2, in the new heaven and new earth, where it appears to be not just one tree, but a type of tree of which there are more than one. Since the three references show paradise to be in different places, then either paradise has been relocated once and will yet be relocated again, or it is a general term.

Summary
Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead. Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies. Hell is a rather general and inadequate term that is often used to refer to either Gehenna or the torment side of Hades, both by those who know the basic difference between these two specific places and by those who do not.
Roman Road to Salvation How to be saved.

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[SharonL]

The Bible speaks of Lazarath being in the bosom of Abraham - and the rich man being in Hell - would the Bosom of Abraham be Paradise?

In Psalm 34:7 - it says -
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.

The angels escort our soul to Heaven at the time of our death.

Very interesting question.

From everything I can find we are in Heaven in a spiritual form, but not in our new bodies.

By the angels escorting us at the time of our death to Heaven and the thief on the cross being promised by Jesus that "this day" he will be in Paradise. Since we do not know where Paradise is, and Jesus saying "this day" - I am taking this to mean our soul exists with Jesus and does not sleep until Judgement day.