A question for "strict TULIP" Reformed Christians

[Joshua G.]

Greeting in Christ!


I have a question for those Calvinists who tend to the more strict view of TULIP (I suppose of the Orthodox Presbetyrian Church brand or the like). I understand that there is a lot of variation under the Presbyterian Umbrella which is why I am being so specific.


If you are not of that brand of Calvinism, but feel you understand that brand well and feel you can give a well-balanced fair answer from THAT specific POV (not your own) then by all means, go for it!


Please understand that I am not here to challenge but only to understand. If my questions sound trollish or debative it is only to press for understanding, NOT to convince you that you are wrong, unreasonable or the like.


SO here it goes:


My understanding is that a fundamental concept is that God is sovereign for the TULIP Calvinist and that to affront the doctrine of predestination (that is that God chooses not to save some to show that He is Just and saves others to express His perfect love, holding Justice and Love in a perfect balance) is to affront his sovereignty.


If this is correct, it would stand to (my) reason (although I am not very well informed as to all of the ins and outs of Calvinist theology, which is why I am here) that to pray that another individual be saved/come to Christ, while understandable and perhaps even pastorally acceptable given people's feelings, is not a perfect prayer because it fundamentally assumes that we can or even should do anything to affect the sovereign will of God. That is, Person A is either willed by God to be among the elect or not and we should never hope that it could ever go differently than that.


Is that a correct assumption? If not, how is such a prayer theologically tenable under your doctrine? I can understand a strict Calvinist praying that he or she do the best to present the Gospel to Person A so that God's Will may be done (understanding full well that Person A may not be among the elect, but since that is not for us to know, we need to do our best), but I can't understand (yet) how, under the strict Calvinist system, God be asked to please consider Person A to be among the elect when God has already either destined him or her to be elected or not.


Thank you so much for your time, charity and consideration! And please understand that I have no greater agenda behind this question. I was simply having a conversation with a friend who was very familiar with strict Calvinism and when I asked this question, he wasn't sure how praying for someone's salvation fit into a model that otherwise seems to be very consistent so I thought I would come here and ask!


Josh

 

[JesusFreak78]

Greeting in Christ!


I have a question for those Calvinists who tend to the more strict view of TULIP (I suppose of the Orthodox Presbetyrian Church brand or the like). I understand that there is a lot of variation under the Presbyterian Umbrella which is why I am being so specific.


If you are not of that brand of Calvinism, but feel you understand that brand well and feel you can give a well-balanced fair answer from THAT specific POV (not your own) then by all means, go for it!


Please understand that I am not here to challenge but only to understand. If my questions sound trollish or debative it is only to press for understanding, NOT to convince you that you are wrong, unreasonable or the like.


SO here it goes:


My understanding is that a fundamental concept is that God is sovereign for the TULIP Calvinist and that to affront the doctrine of predestination (that is that God chooses not to save some to show that He is Just and saves others to express His perfect love, holding Justice and Love in a perfect balance) is to affront his sovereignty.


If this is correct, it would stand to (my) reason (although I am not very well informed as to all of the ins and outs of Calvinist theology, which is why I am here) that to pray that another individual be saved/come to Christ, while understandable and perhaps even pastorally acceptable given people's feelings, is not a perfect prayer because it fundamentally assumes that we can or even should do anything to affect the sovereign will of God. That is, Person A is either willed by God to be among the elect or not and we should never hope that it could ever go differently than that.


Is that a correct assumption? If not, how is such a prayer theologically tenable under your doctrine? I can understand a strict Calvinist praying that he or she do the best to present the Gospel to Person A so that God's Will may be done (understanding full well that Person A may not be among the elect, but since that is not for us to know, we need to do our best), but I can't understand (yet) how, under the strict Calvinist system, God be asked to please consider Person A to be among the elect when God has already either destined him or her to be elected or not.


Thank you so much for your time, charity and consideration! And please understand that I have no greater agenda behind this question. I was simply having a conversation with a friend who was very familiar with strict Calvinism and when I asked this question, he wasn't sure how praying for someone's salvation fit into a model that otherwise seems to be very consistent so I thought I would come here and ask!


Josh

Even if God has chosen who His elect is from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:13) it doesn't mean we shouldn't preach the gospel to all people (Matthew 28:19) since God hasn't told us who His elect is.

 

[Joshua G.]

Even if God has chosen who His elect is from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:13) it doesn't mean we shouldn't preach the gospel to all people (Matthew 28:19) since God hasn't told us who His elect is.

Yes, but that isn't my question.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Yes, but that isn't my question.

I'm sorry. Hopefully this can answer your question.

Yes, you can pray to God to save a person.

 

[Joshua G.]

My question isn't so much "can you do that". All 5pt Calvinists I have spoken to concur that indeed you can and I take you all at your word on that. Rather, my question is how that fits into the Calvinist paradigm, how that does not affront God's sovereign and perfect will.

However, I owe you an apology for not explaining further. I have two identical OPs going on in two forums (Reformed and Presbyterian) and when I saw yours I thought this was the same thread as the other one that has already somewhat taken off: http://www.christianforums.com/t7585335/

If you would like to enter the cnversation, read all the posts there first so we don't have too many redundancies. After that I would love to hear your thoughts if you have anything new share so I can get all of this through my thick skull!!!

Josh

 

[JesusFreak78]

My question isn't so much "can you do that". All 5pt Calvinists I have spoken to concur that indeed you can and I take you all at your word on that. Rather, my question is how that fits into the Calvinist paradigm, how that does not affront God's sovereign and perfect will.

However, I owe you an apology for not explaining further. I have two identical OPs going on in two forums (Reformed and Presbyterian) and when I saw yours I thought this was the same thread as the other one that has already somewhat taken off: http://www.christianforums.com/t7585335/

If you would like to enter the cnversation, read all the posts there first so we don't have too many redundancies. After that I would love to hear your thoughts if you have anything new share so I can get all of this through my thick skull!!!

Josh

Apology accepted.

How do we know it wasn't God's will for us to pray for that person to get saved? Like I said earlier, we don't know who the elect is because God hasn't told us and he hasn't told us if He wants to use our prayers to save someone either. So all we can do is to preach the gospel to people and pray for them to get saved.

 

[Joshua G.]

I think I am beginning to get it, but wasn't the status of his election already predetermined? I can imagine some possible answers to this, but I want to hear what your answer would be to see if I am starting to kind of get this...

Thanks

Josh

 

[JesusFreak78]

I think I am beginning to get it, but wasn't the status of his election already predetermined? I can imagine some possible answers to this, but I want to hear what your answer would be to see if I am starting to kind of get this...

Thanks

Josh

Yes, his status of his election is already predetermined, but if God wanted you to pray for this person to get saved and God is acting up on your prayer to save this person, your action of praying for this person is also predetermined.

 

[Lizabth]

Share the Gospel freely, with all.
Pray as our Lord taught us, for all: "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven", and leave it there.

 

[Joshua G.]

Thanks guys!!!

 

[JesusFreak78]

You're welcome.

 

[lindart]

Yes, his status of his election is already predetermined, but if God wanted you to pray for this person to get saved and God is acting up on your prayer to save this person, your action of praying for this person is also predetermined.

I came upon this thread because, I, too desire to understand Calvin theology regarding the question posted by the OP. But, I would like to understand on a more personal level, if I may. It is this issue that I believe is the root of my anxiety and depression. I struggle with the fear of knowing if my adult children are of the elect. God is my all and I lean on Him for all through the saving work of Jesus. I believe that I have failed as a parent to bring my children to this saving knowledge because of my failure to train them up before I became saved. Though I have tried I understand that they are adults and I have missed this great opportunity when they were young. I do not fear at all for my life but I fear for them and their children. This anxiety is sin, I know, yet I am unable to break out of this. Is there any Scripture and Calvin understanding that might help me with this? I will be totally honest with this sinful thought that I have had for a long time. Please God forgive me and heal me from this through Your Word. I don't want to go to heaven if my children aren't there. If they are not of the elect it will have been because I have put a stumbling block to their salvation. I would be grateful for spiritual input. God bless you

 

[JesusFreak78]

I came upon this thread because, I, too desire to understand Calvin theology regarding the question posted by the OP. But, I would like to understand on a more personal level, if I may. It is this issue that I believe is the root of my anxiety and depression. I struggle with the fear of knowing if my adult children are of the elect. God is my all and I lean on Him for all through the saving work of Jesus. I believe that I have failed as a parent to bring my children to this saving knowledge because of my failure to train them up before I became saved. Though I have tried I understand that they are adults and I have missed this great opportunity when they were young. I do not fear at all for my life but I fear for them and their children. This anxiety is sin, I know, yet I am unable to break out of this. Is there any Scripture and Calvin understanding that might help me with this? I will be totally honest with this sinful thought that I have had for a long time. Please God forgive me and heal me from this through Your Word. I don't want to go to heaven if my children aren't there. If they are not of the elect it will have been because I have put a stumbling block to their salvation. I would be grateful for spiritual input. God bless you

First I want to tell you Calvinists doesn't believe in a doctrine because of Calvin or of any other people, but because the "doctrines of grace" (the T.U.L.I.P) as it's often called is a biblical concept.

If your children is not of the elect it's not from your failure in teaching them what is in the bible. Put your trust in God, pray for your children, talk to them about the gospel (but don't push it too hard. Give it time and be patient) and the most important thing, love them.

Don't know if this is helping or not, but I hope it does and don't be afraid to ask me more questions. It can take some time before I answer since I'm not on CF every day, but I will do my best in answering them.

 

[lindart]

JesusFreak78, I really appreciate your time and response. Upon reading your short but succint comment I literally felt a burden lift from my soul. I am inspired to continue to research T.U.L.I.P. and the Reformation Faith. Thank you, again!

 

[JesusFreak78]

JesusFreak78, I really appreciate your time and response. Upon reading your short but succint comment I literally felt a burden lift from my soul. I am inspired to continue to research T.U.L.I.P. and the Reformation Faith. Thank you, again!

You're welcome. I'm glad I could be to any help, but you should give God the glory for lifting the burden from your soul since only Him is able to give you true peace.

If there is anything you would like to ask me about, related to this topic or not, feel free to send me a PM.

 

[AMR]

I came upon this thread because, I, too desire to understand Calvin theology regarding the question posted by the OP. But, I would like to understand on a more personal level, if I may. It is this issue that I believe is the root of my anxiety and depression. I struggle with the fear of knowing if my adult children are of the elect. God is my all and I lean on Him for all through the saving work of Jesus. I believe that I have failed as a parent to bring my children to this saving knowledge because of my failure to train them up before I became saved. Though I have tried I understand that they are adults and I have missed this great opportunity when they were young. I do not fear at all for my life but I fear for them and their children. This anxiety is sin, I know, yet I am unable to break out of this. Is there any Scripture and Calvin understanding that might help me with this? I will be totally honest with this sinful thought that I have had for a long time. Please God forgive me and heal me from this through Your Word. I don't want to go to heaven if my children aren't there. If they are not of the elect it will have been because I have put a stumbling block to their salvation. I would be grateful for spiritual input. God bless you

None of God's chosen will be lost to him. It is God who does it all, including the faith of the believer. Continue to share the Good News with your children, for it is ordinarily by the hearing of the Word that those chosen by God will come to faith, and trust the will of the Sovereign of the Universe cannot be thwarted. I will lift up prayers for you and yours.

 

[lindart]

AMR, thank you so much. Your prayers and time are much appreciated.

 

[heymikey80]

I think it's really critical to engage in a conversation of equals with other people. This can often be immensely hard to do with your children. I was very blessed to be engaged personally and drawn out by a grandparent, one who was not a Calvinist, but who was willing to allow me to grow without dictation of doctrine.

 

[Shulamite]

Good question by the OP. The Lord commands us to pray for our enemies and also for others to be saved. He pre-ordains our days before one came to be (Psalm 139) and if you are praying for a friend or loved-one to be drawn by the Lord, then even that prayer was ordained by God from you to Him. Paul told us that we are "co-laborers" with Jesus. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith NOT fail, even though Jesus knew ahead of time that Peter's faith would not fail, He interceded for Peter anyway. As a matter of fact, Jesus "ever lives to make intercession for US, the elect." So, we pray for others' salvation because the Lord commands us to. We are even to pray for enemies, whether they are called by the Lord or they aren't.

The Father knew His perfect will toward me when He sent His son to this earth to die for me, yet Jesus prayed for me anyway, even though He predestined me to be His! "Father, I pray not for the world, but for those You have given me...." and if you are His, then Jesus was interceding for you and for me, praying for us!

And as was so aptly stated earlier, we do not know who all of the elect of God are, we do not know all those who WILL later be called, so we pray for them and witness and plant seeds in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)
Hope this helps!