A question for my bro yardpuppy.

Frogster

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I really like you, and enjoy our debates, you are a solid brother. Since my other thread was so abruptly ended, I thought we could continue here, if you would like.:)

How could works justify a creation that was destroyed? Fix the old man?

Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

How did works help God make a new creation, that he created as holy?


2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Did you help God raise you up out of the old Adamic creation? We were after all, raised with him.


Romans 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
 

Yarddog

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I really like you, and enjoy our debates, you are a solid brother. Since my other thread was so abruptly ended, I thought we could continue here, if you would like.:)

How could works justify a creation that was destroyed? Fix the old man?

Romans 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

How did works help God make a new creation, that he created as holy?


2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Did you help God raise you up out of the old Adamic creation? We were after all, raised with him.


Romans 4:25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Hey tadpole,

The only works that truly matter are the works of Jesus Christ. Our faith matters not "if" he had not chosen to go to the cross and die for us.

Jesus Christ is the fix. We cannot fix what Adam's failure.
 
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Frogster

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Show me where works were involved in the destroying of the old, and the creating of the new man, who is CREATED in holiness. Eph 4:24.(God did it).

It says the one man, it does not say us, does it?:)


Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
 
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Frogster

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Hey tadpole,

The only works that truly matter are the works of Jesus Christ. Our faith matters not "if" he had not chosen to go to the cross and die for us.

Jesus Christ is the fix. We cannot fix what Adam's failure.

Then is tadpole correct, we are justified by faith alone?
 
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Frogster

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FAITH IS NEVER ALONE!!!!!!!!

People don't know it but that is what Jesus wrote in the dirt.;)

Stop it! This is not the political thread.:D
Ok..if you admit the op proves my point, I will give you a biscuit, or chuck a frisbee for you to fetch.
 
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Yarddog

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Ok..if you admit the op proves my point, I will give you a biscuit, or chuck a frisbee for you to fetch.
We know that it is only the works of Jesus which redeemed mankind but what you keep "croaking";) about is Catholic theology on "works".

Paul condemns "works" of the law as a means of self justification "but" he commands "works of the Spirit". They must be present for us to be Christian. You cannot say that you have "Faith" and not do "works of the Spirit". These "works" can vary from person to person because it is God who must call us into them. When we do the "works" which God has called us into, those works show our FAITH and that is what James was referring to because FAITH is a "work of the Spirit of God". No Christian can claim these "works" so that we may boast but "GOD can" and our obedience brings righteousness. Not obedience to the Mosaic Law but obedience to the "Spirit of God". These are the "works" which the Catholic Church is referring to, "works of the Spirit of GOD" not "works of the law".

cough, cough, cough. Ahem, excuse me.:ahem: All that shouting messes my throat up.:D The Catholic Church stresses that we are saved by faith which we receive through grace. It is a gift not something that "we" work for. We do "works of the Spirit" because grace moves us to obey God's will.

Just doing the things which the Catholic Church does in worship does not help a person unless they have "faith". The Church cannot force faith on an individual cause it is a gift from God received through grace.

"Some" people are called, by God, into worshiping in a special way, such as praying the rosary. I have not but I am in awe when I sit and watch those who have been called, pray the rosary. The faith that they show as they worship is incredible. They worship God.

I have the greatest respect for all people who have been called to worship in the manner which God calls them into, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Non-Denominational, etc... As long as they worship as God has called, they are doing "works of the Spirit".
 
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Yarddog

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technically, the phrase 'works of law' has nothing to do with Torah observance.

Steve
That really depends on the mind set of each individual. A person who attempts to "justify themselves" by obeying the law because they have no faith is trying to justify themselves by "works of the Law". A person who lives by faith but observes the law is not. It is his faith which justifies him (example: David, Isaiah, etc..)

Very few Jews, when talking about the totality, understood that though. We do see an examples in the NT of these though.

Matthew 1:
19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.

Mark 6:
20 Herod feared John, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man, and kept him in custody. When he heard him speak he was very much perplexed, yet he liked to listen to him.

Luke 1:
5 In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.

6 Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.

Luke 2:
25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon. This man was righteous and devout, awaiting the consolation of Israel, and the holy Spirit was upon him.

Luke 25:
50 Now there was a virtuous and righteous man named Joseph who, though he was a member of the council,

These are examples of Jews who were righteous in the eyes of God prior to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They were not righteous because they obeyed the law, they were righteous because they had faith in God. Because of their faith they obeyed the law.

We cannot deny one part of the Gospels because another may appear to contradict another. We must seek to understand the Gospel by the whole account.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Frogster

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We know that it is only the works of Jesus which redeemed mankind but what you keep "croaking";) about is Catholic theology on "works".

Paul condemns "works" of the law as a means of self justification "but" he commands "works of the Spirit". They must be present for us to be Christian. You cannot say that you have "Faith" and not do "works of the Spirit". These "works" can vary from person to person because it is God who must call us into them. When we do the "works" which God has called us into, those works show our FAITH and that is what James was referring to because FAITH is a "work of the Spirit of God". No Christian can claim these "works" so that we may boast but "GOD can" and our obedience brings righteousness. Not obedience to the Mosaic Law but obedience to the "Spirit of God". These are the "works" which the Catholic Church is referring to, "works of the Spirit of GOD" not "works of the law".

cough, cough, cough. Ahem, excuse me.:ahem: All that shouting messes my throat up.:D The Catholic Church stresses that we are saved by faith which we receive through grace. It is a gift not something that "we" work for. We do "works of the Spirit" because grace moves us to obey God's will.

Just doing the things which the Catholic Church does in worship does not help a person unless they have "faith". The Church cannot force faith on an individual cause it is a gift from God received through grace.

"Some" people are called, by God, into worshiping in a special way, such as praying the rosary. I have not but I am in awe when I sit and watch those who have been called, pray the rosary. The faith that they show as they worship is incredible. They worship God.

I have the greatest respect for all people who have been called to worship in the manner which God calls them into, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Non-Denominational, etc... As long as they worship as God has called, they are doing "works of the Spirit".

wow!
clapping.gif


Help tadpole then, and just say it plainly, by going against the catholic church.

Just say..WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE.

Show leading catholics you do not agree with them.

Just say that one sentence. Because your fusing here.
 
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Tangible

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I keep coming back to this verse in thinking about faith and works ...

Romans 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

This verse does a great job of clearly showing us just exactly how low the bar is set for sinfulness. If we are honest, we immediately realize that we don't have to go very many seconds before we have some thought, some desire, or some motivation that does not proceed from faith. We are very sinful creatures indeed.

Before we are justified we do not have faith in Christ and according to this verse everything we do, whether it looks good or bad, is sin.

After we have been justified and God has given us his free gift of saving faith in Christ we are able to put that faith into action by performing deeds in keeping with our repentance (Acts 26:20).

Now, that's not to say that everything we now do proceeds from faith, for that would be to say that we are no longer capable of sinning, but whatever we do that does proceed from faith is good and righteous in the sight of God. These are the good works that Eph 2:10 tells us we were created in Christ Jesus to do.

As a matter of fact, the kind of faith that God gives us always produces these faith-works, which are not done under compulsion or by threat of punishment under the law, but are works of grace which we do out of love for God and for our neighbor.

Who benefits by these works done in faith? Certainly not God. He is "omni-sufficient" and doesn't need our works, though often he uses them for his purposes, just like he uses our law-works and even our sin-works at times to achieve his purposes. Remember that to God even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags and polluted garments (Isaiah 64:6).

Do we ourselves benefit from our faith-works? Not as far as our justification is concerned. We are saved by faith apart from works. If our works had anything to do with our salvation it would only give us a reason to be proud of ourselves for having been smart enough or strong enough or good enough to choose to allow God to save us or because of some very good thing we think we may have done (Eph 2:8-9).

Our faith-works are done for the benefit of our neighbor, to serve, love, and bless him, to be a part of God's grace by which he richly provides us our daily bread and everything that goes along with it.

Loving our neighbor as ourselves in its most perfect form is a completely selfless act in which every motivation perfectly aligns with God's will. This kind of act is exceedingly rare and is something most people in most situations are simply incapable of doing, and thus we see again how sinful we really are indeed, that even our best faith-works are tainted by our sinful and selfish motivations.

Thankfully, we do not have to do even these faith-works in order to be justified. Jesus our Lord has done absolutely everything that could ever be done to earn our salvation and freely exchanges his righteousness for our sins, taking our sinfulness into himself and nailing it to the cross.
 
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