A question for conservatives in the EC

[BelleC]

Are any on here? I want to find out if there were any here that had not jumped ship to one of the continuing Anglican churches or the ACNA and if so what has your experience there been like in the last several years. If you are part of a conservative Anglican church if there were none available to you would you attend an EC or go somewhere else? Are there theological positions that keep you Anglican versus something else?

I'm trying to figure out if I would be able to fit in to the EC as a conservative leaning Christian. I'm in a progressive part of the country so any EC churches around here are going to lean that way but the number of attendees in the ACNA church I visited was extremely low. As much as I would love to have a missionary mindset with all that, 7 people including the deacons and priest and no children is not going to work me and my small family. I want my child to grow up with friends in church. There are no continuing Anglican churches withing a reasonable distance for active membership. There are several Episcopal churches around me that seem pretty active.

Things I have loved in Anglican/Episcopal churches I've visited:
Communion, both frequency and belief about it.
The creeds, saying them and the clarity if THIS is what we believe. I would love for my daughter to grow up learning and knowing them.
A real sense of beauty in the service.
Baptism being a work of God.
Hymns.
The sense of being a part of a church that is older than the building or the current pastor.

Things that freak me out in the EC:

There was an Atheist bishop?!?!? How did that happen? How did the church handle it?
Openly gay and not celibate bishops. I really don't care if members are gay, straight, whatever but if I'm going to accept priests and bishops I think they should be held to the biblical standard for them.
I'm still really unsure about female priests/bishops. Deacons I'm fine with but the others. Hmmmm... how do you get there without just passing off scriptures you don't like with, well that was cultural?

I guess that my good, bad, and ugly in terms of views. I hope it didn't offend anyone!

 

[Albion]

Hi. I see a lot of different thoughts built into that post, but my impression is that you would not be a person who would be content in an EC parish.

I would say that you COULD be, if what you are after are those items that you listed. Some ECUSA parishes, at least, retain the dignity and sacramental emphasis that historically characterized the church. But you also named several examples of other matters that you are not comfortable with. I see almost no way for you to avoid them in ECUSA, which is why a lot of those who left for a Continuing Anglican church or for ACNA did so. It's also why many more simply went home, usually to attend no church at present.

There are better and worse ECUSA parishes and dioceses, just as there are better and worse Continuing Anglican parishes or ACNA parishes. But if there are no alternative parishes near you which you'd find acceptable, it's not going to do you much good for me to say that they do exist, I understand. BTW, I was a bit surprised to have you report that your ACNA experience turned out to be Low Church; generally it's the opposite with the ACNA.

I am a Continuing Anglican myself, and there are several others here on CF.

 

[BelleC]

Hi. I see a lot of different thoughts built into that post, but my impression is that you would not be a person who would be content in an EC parish.

I would say that you COULD be, if what you are after are those items that you listed. Some ECUSA parishes, at least, retain the dignity and sacramental emphasis that historically characterized the church. But you also named several examples of other matters that you are not comfortable with. I see almost no way for you to avoid them in ECUSA, which is why a lot of those who left for a Continuing Anglican church or for ACNA did so. It's also why many more simply went home, usually to attend no church at present.

There are better and worse ECUSA parishes and dioceses, just as there are better and worse Continuing Anglican parishes or ACNA parishes. But if there are no alternative parishes near you which you'd find acceptable, it's not going to do you much good for me to say that they do exist, I understand. BTW, I was a bit surprised to have you report that your ACNA experience turned out to be Low Church; generally it's the opposite with the ACNA.

I am a Continuing Anglican myself, and there are several others here on CF.

Sorry for being unclear it wasn't "low church" just very low attendance. Usually less than 5 people in the pews on a Sunday. Honestly for only myself it wouldn't be a big deal but I'm really searching for a church where my daughter will have a community too. And that's where me sticky points with the EC matter more. I'm nervous about giving her mixed messages. Do these things matter or don't they?

Lately when my 1 non working Sunday a month comes around I've been going to a nondenominational church and feeling like something is missing. On a lot of points that church should be perfect for me and my daughter will be going to their preschool in the fall but the contemporary services leave me flat. They are very active, do good things in the community, strike the right balance for me between conservative teaching and loving people wherever they are. But I've never been a rock out in church type. I get turned off by a service that feels like a performance.

The services I have attended at the ACNA church near me have been otherwise very good. The priest went to an Orthodox seminary so that definitely comes through with icons on the walls and little things. The 3 other people I've seen there consistently come from a RC background. I'm really not well versed enough in Anglicanism to know low from high

 

[Fish and Bread]

It sounds like what you're kind of asking us to do is to tell you what is most important to you and tell you what is negotiable and non-negotiable from your own personal perspective in your own personal spirituality. That's kind of hard to do!

The last time I was an active Episcopalian apart from the occasional Christmas Eve service was 12 years ago or so. At that time, I was a progressive in a progressive diocese, but at a conservative parish (It was close to where I lived and they had a high-church Eucharist at a convenient time for my then schedule, plus an understanding priest who had no issues with presenting me for confirmation even though I was way more liberal and a few degrees more Catholic than he was [and favored gay marriage and gay clergy]- nice guy). Most of the parishioners, at least the vocal ones who expressed an opinion, were against the consecration of the first openly gay bishop and openly spoke of the parish leaving the diocese and the national church for some other Anglican body (I would have stayed behind as an Episcopalian with whatever priest the bishop sent to reestablish the Episcopalian parish, had that occurred), but, in the end they didn't.

I will say at that time, the dialogue from the parish to the diocese seemed to be "We don't want to be in a church with a gay bishop in any diocese! We might leave! Do you even have a copy of the bible over there? Don't even bother sending our local bishop who voted for allowing the gay bishop to be consecrated in for confirmations and yearly visits!" (Not so much from the priest, but from the parishioners) with the diocese answering something back like "We welcome you as brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ and embrace your diversity of opinion. We'll be happy to send a mutually agreed upon bishop from another diocese who you like to do your visits and confirmations for a while. Please stay with us, we love you people.".

I'm not saying it worked like the above paragraph everywhere, that's just how it worked where I was. After I left (physically moved and stopped attending Episcopalian Eucharists regularly), I checked in on the website and saw a picture of the rector (head priest of the parish) standing with the diocese's bishop. They worked things out. It was a nice picture to see. And as far as I'm aware, the parish stayed Episcopalian and still is Episcopalian all these years later.

Maybe things have changed in the last 12 years, but my gut feeling is that you can probably find a moderate to conservative parish that avoids talking about homosexuality and respects your point of view if you keep it low-key, if you want to. Maybe you'll even find yourself in conversation and prayer changing your mind and adopting a more progressive stance on the issue (You never know). One thing I've found is that typically Episcopalians are very polite and considerate, and really don't raise issues in a confrontational way at the parish level (Sometimes people get confrontational and national at diocesan conventions and the like, or so I've heard- but unless you plan to try to be elected as a delegate to one, that probably won't matter to you at a practical level. ).

I think the big thing is that a conservative would have to be open to sharing pews, a parish, a diocese, and a national church with people who she disagrees with, and agreeing to disagree respectfully and allow people to have their own viewpoints. No one is likely to stand at pulpit and preach against acceptance of homosexuality at this point in the church's history, but there are certainly priests and parishes where the issue will rarely if ever be discussed from the pulpit and where priests may or may not agree with the national church.

I mean, really, you've got to ask yourself if you need uniformity of opinion or if you can embrace diversity in your church experience. That's what's going to be key. And you'll probably want to check out several parishes to find one that's the right fit for you, because some of the more progressive parishes probably wouldn't be, but you might be okay in a moderate to conservative parish. I would just say figure out what you're comfortable with and go from there. You're not going to be able to change the church, but you can maybe find a corner you feel comfortable enough with, and sort of evaluate and maybe move your comfort zone a little bit so that you can sort of embrace the differences.

If you absolutely can't stand to be in the same church as gay bishops and whatnot, obviously that's what breakaway churches like ACNA are for. But there is room between disagreeing with people and not being able to stand to be in the same church with people, obviously. Where you are can help you figure out where you fit.

As far as Bishop Spong, the atheist bishop goes, he's retired now. People like him do exist, but he represents I would say is one far theological pole of the EC. The odds are that your parish priest and your diocese's bishops are very much believers in a theistic God and in Jesus and whatnot. The Episcopal Church welcomes a lot of different viewpoints, and I have to say that them having an atheist bishop and a gay bishop (two separate people) made it easier for me to walk in the door the first time, because I figured "Well, if those two guys can be bishops, they'll probably be okay with me sitting in a pew taking communion even though I'm a liberal. I'm not even gay or an atheist!". And, even in a conservative parish, I was right.

 

[Paidiske]

Things that freak me out in the EC:

There was an Atheist bishop?!?!? How did that happen? How did the church handle it?
Openly gay and not celibate bishops. I really don't care if members are gay, straight, whatever but if I'm going to accept priests and bishops I think they should be held to the biblical standard for them.
I'm still really unsure about female priests/bishops. Deacons I'm fine with but the others. Hmmmm... how do you get there without just passing off scriptures you don't like with, well that was cultural?

I guess that my good, bad, and ugly in terms of views. I hope it didn't offend anyone!

While I'm in Australia, where the landscape is a little different, and overall, I gather, a lot more conservative than in America, here are some thoughts from me which may or may not be helpful; feel free to pay them the precise amount of attention you like and ignore the rest.

- The atheist bishop, from what I understand, didn't start out that way. He started out as quite a fundamentalist, and in gradually moving away from fundamentalism, ended up moving away from faith altogether. I find that really sad - and incomprehensible that neither he nor his church thought maybe he needed to resign - but it is a bit different than an atheist offering for ordination. I may not be in America, but I have difficulty believing they'd ordain an atheist!

- As to women's ordination, I suggest that you read some of the work that's been written by proponents of it. The book that moved me from being opposed to being open to women's ordination is this one: Women in the Church: The Great Ordination Debate in Australia: Muriel Porter: 9780140130416: Amazon.com: Books Granted, it's an Australian work, but it helped me understand why some people were pushing for change.

- As far as sexuality goes, the church has a problem, in that there is a high level of hypocrisy here. On the one hand, we set out standards we expect our clergy to live by, and on the other hand, we wink at gay clergy who don't live by them. I am not entirely at peace with this situation. Where I've got to on that is realising two things:
- I don't require the church to be perfect, to be willing to participate in it
- The various queer folk I know who are ordained are all doing their utmost to live faithful to God as they understand it. Some of them have worked that out for themselves in different ways, but while I may not agree with all of their actions, I've yet to meet one whose genuine heart for God I didn't respect.

Those two things are enough for me to be able to stay where I am without feeling intolerably compromised. Most of the time it is not an issue, but occasionally I have awkward moments. (And I have to say, sometimes the behaviour of some of the other members of the church is so utterly graceless that they cause me more issues than my gay colleagues).

So as Fish & Bread says, it's probably a matter of you working out where the line is for you. If you can find a parish where the priest is a straight man, you might need give it no more thought than that, because it won't impinge on your day-to-day life in the parish.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I think the key question is whether you can co-exist among people, some of whom think differently than you. We like to think of The Episcopal Church as a "big tent" church with room for all under the tent. That means liberals and conservatives, gays and straights, traditionalists and progressives, etc. The Episcopal Church is not monolithic. You really have to understand something about your diocese, a priest, and a congregation to make a decision about whether it works for you.

For example, the gay marriage issue is up to Bishop to decide if they will permit it in their diocese. If the Bishop permits it, a Priest has choice about whether he - and yes - or she will perform the ceremony. And the church has say about whether they will allow it in their church. For example, our last Bishop gave priests permission to perform gay marriages if they did so outside of the boundaries of our diocese.

I do not claim my church to be representative. We are in a conservative state with a recently retired Bishop who forbade gay marriage within his diocese. Our congregation has never had opportunity to vote on how we feel about it. Some are vocal for it Some are vocal against it. Who knows, maybe we fracture if it comes to a vote? For now, we all get along in one large Christian family -- and just like all families we don't all agree with each other but we gather at the table in peace with each other for the meal.

 

[BelleC]

Thank you all for your thoughts. There is so much to think about.

It is on my mind right now as the end of the school year is coming and with that the end of my Sunday job for the summer. I'm coming to my opportunity to really seek out a church I want to be a part of and attend regularly for the summer. The ECUSA church I have visited is really nice and I had the opportunity to sit down for a bit with the pastor there. I have no issue with the local congregation or pastor there. I was really curious (and hopeful) to hear from those who are conservative but stayed in the ECUSA and how they feel about being a part of a liberal denomination.

 

[BelleC]

The atheist bishop, from what I understand, didn't start out that way. He started out as quite a fundamentalist, and in gradually moving away from fundamentalism, ended up moving away from faith altogether.

That makes more sense. I couldn't wrap my mind around ordaining someone who doesn't believe in God to guide others into a personal relationship with God. I hope his falling away from God didn't push others who looked up to him as their bishop away too. That would be truly awful.

- As to women's ordination, I suggest that you read some of the work that's been written by proponents of it. The book that moved me from being opposed to being open to women's ordination is this one: Women in the Church: The Great Ordination Debate in Australia: Muriel Porter: 9780140130416: Amazon.com: Books Granted, it's an Australian work, but it helped me understand why some people were pushing for change.

I never would have imagined you were opposed to it! That must be some book!

 

[Paidiske]

I never would have imagined you were opposed to it! That must be some book!

In hindsight, I think God was working to prepare me for stuff I wasn't ready to consider yet. But at the time it did kind of blow my mind.

 

[seeking.IAM]

... I was really curious (and hopeful) to hear from those who are conservative but stayed in the ECUSA and how they feel about being a part of a liberal denomination.

Your comment leads me to say I am not one who "stayed" after the hoopla over homosexuality or Bishop Robinson. Rather, I am one who came afterward. Truth be told some had already left my church over this before I arrived. Because I came later, I have not suffered the same pain of division as some fellow parishioners.

I consider myself a moderate traditionalist. That is to say there are those in my parish far to the right of me and those far to the left of me. I knew the issues prior to stepping into the church that first day. I came only to learn and experience while looking for a new church that could offered a reverential and liturgical worship experience. I was hooked the first day. They had just what I had been looking for, and a few complications to go along with it to be sure. Nonetheless, I have encountered a richness in the liturgy and worship here that transcends any of the "issues." I don't know what the future holds, but either way I have a hard time seeing myself leaving under any circumstance other than their total abandonment of the faith.

 

[Albion]

Sorry for being unclear it wasn't "low church" just very low attendance. Usually less than 5 people in the pews on a Sunday. Honestly for only myself it wouldn't be a big deal but I'm really searching for a church where my daughter will have a community too. And that's where me sticky points with the EC matter more. I'm nervous about giving her mixed messages. Do these things matter or don't they?

Lately when my 1 non working Sunday a month comes around I've been going to a nondenominational church and feeling like something is missing. On a lot of points that church should be perfect for me and my daughter will be going to their preschool in the fall but the contemporary services leave me flat. They are very active, do good things in the community, strike the right balance for me between conservative teaching and loving people wherever they are. But I've never been a rock out in church type. I get turned off by a service that feels like a performance.

The services I have attended at the ACNA church near me have been otherwise very good. The priest went to an Orthodox seminary so that definitely comes through with icons on the walls and little things. The 3 other people I've seen there consistently come from a RC background. I'm really not well versed enough in Anglicanism to know low from high

Well, Low vs High just refers to the level of ceremony. A High Church service would be more like a Catholic Mass and a Low Church (in the USA) would follow the Book of Common Prayer's format but have less of the optional posturing, vestments, chanting, and so on. For some people, the difference doesn't matter at all, just the doctrine (which, it's true, can be reflected to some degree in the ceremony). But for some other people, it matters a lot.

 

[Paidiske]

Happy birthday, Albion!

 

[Albion]

Thank you, Paidiske.

 

[gordonhooker]

Have a good one and make sure you pampered and waited upon on YOUR day. Happy Birthday Albion!

 

[Albion]

I 'preciate it, Gordon!

 

[Mary7]

I found many comments on here to be helpful. As some know, I have been wrestling with the 'gay issue' in TEC. I would for sure go to an Anglican church but there is not one anywhere near me. What I am wanting is the liturgical worship that I grew up with. In adulthood I have mostly attended Baptist churches but it doesn't 'feel ' like church lol.

I think for now, as long as there is no gay priest in my parish I will try to ignore the issue. My concern is that this parish is seeking a priest since the last one left. I could not ignore a gay priest because of strong admonitions against that in scripture. Gay couples in church? I could live with that even though I cannot understand how they ignore what the Bible says about it.
Just noticed that this thread is old lol

 

[Mary7]

Are any on here? I want to find out if there were any here that had not jumped ship to one of the continuing Anglican churches or the ACNA and if so what has your experience there been like in the last several years. If you are part of a conservative Anglican church if there were none available to you would you attend an EC or go somewhere else? Are there theological positions that keep you Anglican versus something else?

I'm trying to figure out if I would be able to fit in to the EC as a conservative leaning Christian. I'm in a progressive part of the country so any EC churches around here are going to lean that way but the number of attendees in the ACNA church I visited was extremely low. As much as I would love to have a missionary mindset with all that, 7 people including the deacons and priest and no children is not going to work me and my small family. I want my child to grow up with friends in church. There are no continuing Anglican churches withing a reasonable distance for active membership. There are several Episcopal churches around me that seem pretty active.

Things I have loved in Anglican/Episcopal churches I've visited:
Communion, both frequency and belief about it.
The creeds, saying them and the clarity if THIS is what we believe. I would love for my daughter to grow up learning and knowing them.
A real sense of beauty in the service.
Baptism being a work of God.
Hymns.
The sense of being a part of a church that is older than the building or the current pastor.

Things that freak me out in the EC:

There was an Atheist bishop?!?!? How did that happen? How did the church handle it?
Openly gay and not celibate bishops. I really don't care if members are gay, straight, whatever but if I'm going to accept priests and bishops I think they should be held to the biblical standard for them.
I'm still really unsure about female priests/bishops. Deacons I'm fine with but the others. Hmmmm... how do you get there without just passing off scriptures you don't like with, well that was cultural?

I guess that my good, bad, and ugly in terms of views. I hope it didn't offend anyone!

Wow! Your thoughts are identical to mine!! I am still wrestling with this since our state allows gay clergy, even 'married' gay clergy. The Bishop told me that pretty much all the clergy in this state agree with this, after I told him that I don't care if members are gay but that clergy needs to believe what is in the Bible.

So, which is worse having a gay priest or a priest that believes gay is not a sin.
That has taken me to searching Catholic and Orthodox churches but the 'Mary issue' and icons are just too big of a block for me.
There is no Anglican church within hours of me or I would join that church.

 

[Albion]

Hi, Mary. I'm one who thinks it matters what one's church believes and teaches and does. I don't do well following the principle of "don't worry about it." However, I feel bad and regretful when I encounter someone who has a conventional set of values but there's no congregation for her, meaning that she is left churchless.

Have we discussed your next best alternatives, those that MIGHT do, if not perfectly?? I do not think it is either Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism--for many of the same reasons that you have hesitated to move in that direction.

 

[Mary7]

Hi, Mary. I'm one who thinks it matters what one's church believes and teaches and does. I don't do well following the principle of "don't worry about it." However, I feel bad and regretful when I encounter someone who has a conventional set of values but there's no congregation for her, meaning that she is left churchless.

Have we discussed your next best alternatives, those that MIGHT do, if not perfectly?? I do not think it is either Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism--for many of the same reasons that you have hesitated to move in that direction.

Actually we did but after researching that one you had mentioned I have ruled it out at this point, not permanently though.

 

[Albion]

Yeh, I wondered if we had discussed that already, and if so, what the suggestion had been. Now that you say what you do, I seem to recall that there was some objection that I had not considered. It does seem a shame that there isn't some way to proceed.