A Question for Christians

[Epiphoskei]

I'm not talking ontology. I'm talking about the devotional life of the Christian, and how the Father and the Son are experienced differently. My point stands. We are alienated from the Father but reconciled through the Son because of the unity of his humanity and divinity. The only way to participate in the divine nature is by way of the incarnate Son.

If you're not talking ontology then you can't argue that focusing on Christ's ontological full deity distances us from him.

 

[Epiphoskei]

so in other words, you cant answer the question

In other words, as a rule, I don't respond to arguments from silence unless given alongside other supporting evidence. Arguments from silence, strictly speaking, do not prove anything. When used in conjunction with other evidence they may heighten the probability that the other evidence must be taken the way one argues it should be taken, but when used alone, as if they were sufficient argument unto themselves, they are logical fallacies.

 

[ittarter]

If you're not talking ontology then you can't argue that focusing on Christ's ontological full deity distances us from him.

I think I've lost you in the fog......

 

[Tenten]

Tenten when I say “God is out there in the sky” what I mean is some Christian believe God is in Heaven and if you ask where is Heaven? They point out to the sky.

The point I was trying to make is that God is within; there is plenty of evidence in the Bible as well who tells us that God is within. However I as said before God did not write any books himself, but has inspired men to do so, and therefore that has allowed for human interpretation. And as you correctly mention above it can’t be taken literally, as much of it was symbolic, in parables and also Metaphysical.

The process of translation, while sometimes we can’t see any obvious differences in meaning between the various stages in the translation, there are often differences in the words used to convey the meaning. So it is very important to know and to chose very carefully which Bible you are using for study as some are not “translations” but “interpretations”

A translation tries to bring over into the new language every word from the original, this is seldom possible if the translations are to make sense to the reader, and therefore the “interpretations” are concerned only with conveying the meaning according to the translator interpretation.

So when you say:

“the OT shows G-d as being very involved in the earth, even intervening in events. G-d appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He literally walked with Adam and Eve in the garden- conversed with them even! He spoke the Ten Commandments to Moses on the mountain.”

You read all of that in the OT, but below are also examples that said nobody has seen God face. (Please forgive me, I do not try to confuse you, I just try to point out that the Bible is open to interpretation.)

"But,” God said to Moses, “You cannot see my face; for no one may see Me and live.” Exodus 33:20

20 But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” 1 Timothy 6:16

16 He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.

(John 4:24 NIV) God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and ... (spirit does not have face)

Personally here is how I see and describe God, at least the God I believe in regardless of any book ;

God is Omnipresence meaning all presence. Capable of being everywhere at the same time. He is without limits. He is not limited by time or space, or by any event or circumstances. God is everywhere, therefore God is here.

God is Omnipotence meaning all powerful. He is the underlying Truth of all creation from the tiniest atom to vast visible form. He is the first cause of all that exists. His work of creating takes place in the invisible realm of divine ideas. God is principle which means; origin, beginning, foundation, source, from which flows all manifestation.

God is Omniscience meaning all science, all knowledge. God knows everything about the universe He created, and about every living creature He created. He knows everything about all our needs, what we need in order to be happy, healthy, wealthy, etc. He knows all about our problems, what we are going through, our pains, hurts, feelings, our fears, etc. there is nothing He does not know. He knows and understands us.

He is a loving Father, and we feel His presence as we turn within for direction, guidance, protection and peace.

God is Spirit, Being, Mind, Love, everything Good Thing.

Uh! I feel so good just writing about God, I just can fell His Loving Presence.

Blessings


.

I never said the Bible cannot be taken literally. I realize some of it is symbolic because some of it is written in parables and such. But there are plenty of parts that are literal, especially in the OT. But HaShem physically came down from heaven and spoke the Ten Commandments to Moses. You are write that in Exodus it says, "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." But you failed to read the rest of the chapter in Exodus. I want you to notice it says You cannot see MY FACE and live. Moses saw G-d, but he did not see G-d's face. Later in the chapter it states, "Behold, there is a place by Me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with My hand while I pass by: And I will take away Mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but My face shall not be seen."

So yes, Amonai does physically interact with people in the OT in a very intimate manner, and Moses saw Him, but Moses is alive because he did not see G-d's face.

 

[jacobs well]

Despite God is invisible to the physical eye, doesnt God have definite form and shape? God said " let us make man in our likeness " Adam was made in the image and likeness of God-right?
Whenever God revealed Himself to human eyes, He always seemed to appear in man-like form and shape never appearing in the form of any other creature.
As has been mentioned God never showed His full, shining glory to these men. But they did see God in part and what they saw was a person like being as we are. even in prophetic visions of Glory by Ezekiel, God still looked like a man, sitting upon a throne.
the Bible-NT and OT- is replete with references to God having human body parts- head, hair, face, eyes, ears, nose, nostrils, mouth, lips, tongue, shoulders, arms, hands, fingers, chest, back parts, feet-yet there are those who say we cant really know what God looks like-look in the mirror.
God is not a blob.
The Bible does not say that either the Father or the Son is omnipresent bodily. Their Spirit is omnipresent-so the Father and Son are only omnipresent in and through the divine presence of Their Spirit.
Can the Father and Christ occupy both time and space?
Some argue that spirit cannot have both form and shape-what then do we call angels?

 

[AvgJoe]

Acts 5: 3-4 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Does not state specifically in this passage that the Holy Spirit is God, I don't think so, ....... lol...(but thnx 4 sharing)

In verse 3, Peter said that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. In verse 4, Peter said Ananias lied to God.

Holy Spirit = God

That is specific.

I will be delighted to refute your misinterpretation of scripture.. ..jokes I mean biblical convictions if you are still confused .

No need. Seems it would be a fruitless exercise.

 

[ripple the car]

Jacobs' Well ~

as to the Father's omnipresence, would these verses not confirm it?

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Kings 8:27)

Can anyone hide himself in secret places, so I shall not see him?” says the LORD;“Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 23:24)

to say that the Father has a form or a body (or near to it) would be to come dangerously close to the LDS view, that God is essentially a man with a form, of a certain specific (physical) substance.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)

not to say that God can not show something of Himself to us, as He did to Moses. the fullness of God's person and being did dwell in the Man Jesus Christ, so in that sense God did become Man and occupy time and space in a specific way. i would also read those references to God's body parts as being figurative, comparing the acts and power of the Father to bodily forms and actions, such as a powerful arm, or to breath blowing from His nostrils.

what is your take on that? not trying to be challenging or combatative, just wanting to understand more how you see this.

 

[jacobs well]

Does not David explain it when he says " Where can I go from YOUR SPIRIT? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven you are there-if I make my bed in hell, you are there............Psalms.139:7-12
This scripture appears to be saying that God is everywhere but only in and through His Spirit.

And when God said He would let Moses see His " back parts " (Exodus33:23)
in what context could this be construed as a figure of speech or metaphor as some claim. It has to be taken literally.

 

[ripple the car]

Does not David explain it when he says " Where can I go from YOUR SPIRIT? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend into heaven you are there-if I make my bed in hell, you are there............Psalms.139:7-12
This scripture appears to be saying that God is everywhere but only in and through His Spirit.

And when God said He would let Moses see His " back parts " (Exodus33:23)
in what context could this be construed as a figure of speech or metaphor as some claim. It has to be taken literally.

sounds like in Psalms that the Spirit of God *is* His presence, as God is Spirit, and fills heaven and earth, and beyond. meaning that God is existent within and outside of His creation.

as to Moses seeing the back parts of God, i would answer that one can not see the back parts of an infinite and all-encompassing Being, as such a Being has no back or front parts. but one can see something of God's glory and holiness visibly, as the Lord showed to Moses.

 

[Tenten]

I had no idea people's opinions differed on what made in His image meant. Now this is fun to talk about! I for one always took it to mean that we were created with a divine soul, which is completely different from the spirits animals and other creatures have. This divine soul gives us the freedom of choice, so we do not act on instinct or impulse like animals do. This is what separates us from animals, being made in His image.

 

[ripple the car]

Tenten ~

i would agree, it is more a spiritual / relational likeness than a physical likeness. e.g. many people read the Bible and wonder why God seems so "human", and figure that the men who penned it have made God seem like them. when in reality our human emotions such as anger, a desire for justice, love, and mercy are modeled on God, not the other way round.

it's interesting that man is the only creature into whom God breathed His Spirit to impart life, no?

 

[AvgJoe]

I had no idea people's opinions differed on what made in His image meant. Now this is fun to talk about! I for one always took it to mean that we were created with a divine soul, which is completely different from the spirits animals and other creatures have. This divine soul gives us the freedom of choice, so we do not act on instinct or impulse like animals do. This is what separates us from animals, being made in His image.

Yes, I agree with your view of being made in God's image, it has nothing to do with a physical likeness. Also, being made in the image of God, we are another analogy of the Trinity. We are 3 parts, body soul and spirit, just as God is 3 parts, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet we are both 1 being, or essence. I know, it doesn't come close to a perfect explanation. Analogies trying to explain God always fall short.

 

[jacobs well]

Notice in psalm 139-that "thy Spirit" is synonymous with " thy presence ". Gods Spirit, then may be defined as Gods spiritual presence. David knew that no matter where he went=God would always be there in Spirit-but he knew God was fully capable of intervening into the natural world and making His presence known.

Some argue God merely made man in His mental image-not in His actual image-the Hebrew words translated image and likeness show that Adam was made to look like His maker
Adam begat a son in his own image and likeness using the same Hebrew words and Adams son resembled his father-He was in the fathers physical image and likeness just as adam was in the image and likenss of God-just as we are

 

[Fireinfolding]

Stephen prays " Lord Jesus, receive my spirit " the Bible only approves prayers directed to deity
Titus speaks of " the glorious appearing of our great GOD and Savior Jesus Christ Titus2:13
Peter reminds us of "the righteousness of our GOD and Savior Jesus Christ" Pet1:1 applying the title GOD to Christ.
John 5:20.....in His son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
John 20:28- My Lord and my GOD -here Jesus is addressed as God
unitarians claim there is no text that proclaims Jesus as God
Jesus Himself asks His disciples ' but who do you say that I am? " Matt16:15

Here with regard to Jesus adressed as My Lord and my God the scriptures speak of this elsewhere. He is declared the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead (The firstborn of the dead) where elsewhere it says, "UNTO the SON HE (The Father saith) THY THRONE O GOD is forever... For the Father PUT all things UNDER the Son but (in regards to all things being put under the Son) The Father is excepted of that rule (being put under the Son). And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Son) THEN shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (The Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. As Heres THE LORD saith to MY LORD sit at my right hand UNTIL I make your enemies your footstool. Thats why I can understand why Paul says, FOR US there is ONE GOD (The Father) and ONE LORD (Jesus Christ) they are one.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Same with the doctrine of Christ, Jesus said, my doctrine is not mine but the Fathers. Its called the doctrine of Christ (which was the Fathers) wherein abiding in that doctrine one has BOTH the Father and the Son) and its called "The doctrine OF GOD"

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 10:40 he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

2Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Father through the Son, they are one

In regards to "Eternal life" we need to know what it is. Eternal life = TO KNOW THEE the one true God. No one comes unto the Father EXCEPT by ME (The Son) GIVES "ETERNAL LIFE" = TO KNOW GOD (The Father).

John 20:17... I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

This LIFE (eternal life = knowing the Father) is in His Son, for only the Son knoweth the Father and revealeth Him (the Father) to whom the Son chooses theres the "WE BOTH will come unto HIM"

See the same wording in John 17:3 even here?

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

See both there?

The Son (true and faithful witness) revealeth God Father who is true (WE) will come unto you (Christ giveth understanding to know the only true God) "that we might KNOW the only true GOD"= eternal life (To know Him) in Christ (Who alone knoweth the Father) and through whom (alone) we come unto the Father (He reveals the Father)

See the "WE"

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


His words are awesome, you cant have the Father without the Son but you can have the Father if you have the Son because its the Son who reveals the Father which is Eternal life ("the knowing of the Father" in him alone) and if he (The Son) be in you then you have BOTH (The Father and the Son) Even as you are in the one true God and eternal life (even Christ) who gives this.

You can roll that around for ever Its sorta fun

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.