A Question for Christians

[Tenten]

Hey, I have a few questions concerning Christianity as a new convert that I was hoping someone who is orthodox could answer. I am being serious about these questions, and I am not trying to stir up controversy or anger anyone. So please, anyone who has an orthodox answer, explain an answer to me, and I would also like Biblical verses sited as reference if you happen to have that for me.

I am having trouble understanding the nature of Jesus. One of the main points being where Jesus was tempted in the desert by Satan. If Jesus is G-d, then He is perfect and, therefore, incapable of sin. How can Jesus be tempted if He is G-d?

Another question I have is, how did Jesus learn during His life? The Bible shows clear evidence that Jesus continuously learned while living, and even after His resurrection, He learned some things He never knew while alive, like the date of His return. I have been told that Jesus never ceased to be G-d, meaning He was G-d while living on earth, so how is it that Jesus learned these things if He was an all-powerful, all-knowing being? Being omniscient is something you cannot just shed temporarily.

A huge question I have is in reference to Jesus dying on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. In Ephesians 5:2, Jesus is described as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to G-d. I just want to know how G-d can sacrifice Himself to Himself. I tried finding out on my own with research, but could not produce anything, and yes, I already prayed about it.

A big question I have is why Jesus always referred to G-d as someone separate from Himself. I see it all over NT. When Jesus prays at the rock asking G-d for guidance. Why would G-d pray to Himself for guidance? In Mtt 3:17, when Jesus is baptized and G-d says "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." What exactly was the point in that? Why would G-d say He is pleased in Himself? And if Jesus was G-d and incapable of sin, then what would G-d have been pleased in? Plus, I've never seen G-d and Jesus used interchangeably in the Bible anywheres. Also, Jesus always acknowledged that the power He had was G-d's and not His own. Why would Jesus say this if they were the same person? And when the disciples asked to sit at His right and left hands, Jesus responded that it was not His to give but the Father's to decide... again, if they were the same person, then why? And how could Jesus sit at the right hand of Himself if G-d and Jesus were the same person?

Again, to reiterate, I am not trying to stir up controversy, though I realize I probably am, I just have not been able to find the answers on my own. In fact, in trying to stir up answers through research, I have only stirred up more questions for myself and further confusion. I am hoping someone can read this and say "Oh, that is easy! I know the answer to that!" and enlighten me with a theory I am unfamiliar with. I do not want some radical answer that is way off touch from the Bible, but an orthodox one or one that is in accordance with the Bible. I have already prayed about it, but I am still having trouble comprehending. So please, does someone have an answer?

 

[wayseer]

You need to read some books on theology. But if you are not willing to have your beliefs challenged then no one can help you.

 

[Zurra]

Hi Topic Writer:

Since you have more than 1 question I shall endeavour to answer each one in parts.

I am having trouble understanding the nature of Jesus. One of the main points being where Jesus was tempted in the desert by Satan. If Jesus is G-d, then He is perfect and, therefore, incapable of sin. How can Jesus be tempted if He is G-d?

As a spirit being, prior to His human birth, He was infinite in knowledge, power & presence. As God He would know everything and have unlimited power to act on any object, anywhere. But if He was human, He could not do everything. He would be limited to the normal abilities any normal human being would have. He could not have been both infinite and finite simultaneously.

*As human Jesus he had a physical body with physical limitations.
When Jesus became flesh He was still God in terms of His identity, but he was nevertheless a human being in every sense of the word.*

Jesus had a physical body. His closest disciple attests that He was a physical person ref: 1 John 1:1. John is establishing the humanity of Jesus Christ when he says they heard, saw and touched Jesus.

Physiologically, He was a human being just as we are human, subject to death. Also see: Matt 4:2; John 19;28; John 4:6; Hebs 2:10. He was made flesh "that He ..... might taste death for everyone" vs.9.

Also John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".

It is evident from Scripture that God could become a physical human being and therefore become subject to a finite, physical existence--limited to time & space, subject to pain, suffering & death & to being tempted.

And Jesus did this. "He, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his privileges as God's equal, but stripped himself of every advantage by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born a man. And, plainly seen as a human being, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, to the point of deaht, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal" Philippians 2:6-8, NT in Modern English.

 

[Zurra]

Hi Tenten,

I will answer the rest of your questions later, as I will give you time to respond when you're able first.

peace

 

[jacobs well]

Jesus became a human being and He was also God according to scripture . Jesus had a physical body. He was made flesh that He might taste death for everyone.
He would be limited to the normal abilities of a normal human. He could not be both infinite and finite simultaneously.
Jesus had knowledge beyond normal human abilities that the Father gave Him yet at the same time He did not know everything.
In His human capacity Jesus could and was subject to temptation but it was certain that He would not sin. How could Jesus set the example for overcoming temptation if He did not experience the Human nature that is subject to the evils of this world?
Jesus could not do anything supernatural on His own. He relied on the Father.
Jesus could die in His human form and relied on His Father to save Him-He put His salvation on the same basis as ours-the faith of Jesus was absolute with His Father-its the same faith we are saved.

 

[Tenten]

So then... you guys are saying when Jesus became flesh, He lost all of the omni attributes of G-d while He was made flesh? Does this mean my understanding of Him being simply the spirit of G-d in a human body is wrong, and that He was literally the Word of G-d made flesh so He changed form (hence why He lost all of the omni attributes)?

 

[jacobs well]

Jesus was in the form of God but did not seek to hold on to His divine prerogatives. Instead, He gave up His glory and trusted God to give it back to Him at exaltation.
Jesus willingly subordinated Himself and had taken second place to show the way for mankind and to demonstrate the folly of Satans way. This shows the love Christ had for the Father. Though He was rich , He made Himself poor.
The deity of Jesus Christ was never compromised at any time even as a human being

 

[RevKidd]

Here's a real simple answer for you to get started. Christ new this would be a problem, and stated that his relationship to the Father should not be one to worry about.

However, this question has been asked since the ages and debated on. So do not feel left out, and do not allow it to cause your faith to waiver.

God sacrificing God... Hmmm... never thought about it like that.. See, this is not easy to answer. But we can't view it like that.. because there are many instances where Jesus certainly seperated himself from the Father. And I believe He intentionally did so, becuase if he hadn't, most people hearing Jesus speak would be lost in the conundrum that you are finding yourself in now.

The OT prophecies demanded a Messiah, not a God. Someone who would deliever the Jews. This Messiah would be of the line of David. The OT prophecies continually speak of a "Man" type figure, flesh and blood... So we know from the OT that he had to be "Human". Paul also states His human side allows him to be the perfect intercessor for us. For being tempted in everyway, he can then understand us.

But, Christ also states that "I and my father are one". There are various ways too look at that, and certainly, who Jesus is talking to and understanding the context is very important. Being like minded with somone could mean that I am "One" with them, but we are two totally seperate people.

This is very deep, but until you grow more and understand more, as I said earlier and as Jesus said, don't let that relationship between God and Christ worry you too much.

 

[ittarter]

Hey, I have a few questions concerning Christianity as a new convert that I was hoping someone who is orthodox could answer. I am being serious about these questions, and I am not trying to stir up controversy or anger anyone. So please, anyone who has an orthodox answer, explain an answer to me, and I would also like Biblical verses sited as reference if you happen to have that for me.

What do you mean by "orthodox"?

I am having trouble understanding the nature of Jesus. One of the main points being where Jesus was tempted in the desert by Satan. If Jesus is G-d, then He is perfect and, therefore, incapable of sin. How can Jesus be tempted if He is G-d?

This assumes that being tempted is itself a form of sin. What is the basis for this assumption?

Jesus, as a man, is inherently capable of sin. Your question is really a matter of the relationship between the divine and human natures of Christ.

Another question I have is, how did Jesus learn during His life? The Bible shows clear evidence that Jesus continuously learned while living, and even after His resurrection, He learned some things He never knew while alive, like the date of His return. I have been told that Jesus never ceased to be G-d, meaning He was G-d while living on earth, so how is it that Jesus learned these things if He was an all-powerful, all-knowing being? Being omniscient is something you cannot just shed temporarily.

Again, your question is really a matter of the relationship between the divine and human natures of Christ.

I would suggest that you are asking wrong-headed questions, similar in vein to "If God can do anything, can he create a mountain too heavy for him to move?" Such inquiry assumes a false metaphysical consistency of the theological doctrines in question. By this I mean that you must understand such doctrines in the manner in which they were intended, if you want to get anything of value out of them.

A huge question I have is in reference to Jesus dying on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. In Ephesians 5:2, Jesus is described as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to G-d. I just want to know how G-d can sacrifice Himself to Himself. I tried finding out on my own with research, but could not produce anything, and yes, I already prayed about it.

In Ephesians 5:2 the image of the smell of the burnt offering is used to convey the righteous nature of self-sacrifice. When we give of ourselves in love for another, God is pleased.

Again, you are interpreting this passage solely in terms of your own interest in the nature of Christ.

I don't want to invalidate your question... After all, many people have asked this question, and will continue to ask it. However, I wonder why you ask it. Perhaps if I knew why you were asking this question, I might be able to help you answer it. I think that the problem may be that you are framing your question incorrectly.

Of course, an important historical observation is that no passage in the Bible presupposes the closely defined Trinitarian theology later defined by the creeds and councils. And they certainly have no interest in making that issue "simple" or "easy." If you want the convoluted and philosophical answers of the folks who first enunciated Trinitarian theology, go read St. Augustin's On the Trinity. Not exactly a light read...

A big question I have is why Jesus always referred to G-d as someone separate from Himself. I see it all over NT. When Jesus prays at the rock asking G-d for guidance. Why would G-d pray to Himself for guidance? In Mtt 3:17, when Jesus is baptized and G-d says "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." What exactly was the point in that? Why would G-d say He is pleased in Himself? And if Jesus was G-d and incapable of sin, then what would G-d have been pleased in? Plus, I've never seen G-d and Jesus used interchangeably in the Bible anywheres. Also, Jesus always acknowledged that the power He had was G-d's and not His own. Why would Jesus say this if they were the same person? And when the disciples asked to sit at His right and left hands, Jesus responded that it was not His to give but the Father's to decide... again, if they were the same person, then why? And how could Jesus sit at the right hand of Himself if G-d and Jesus were the same person?

Okay, your interpretation of these passages clearly demonstrate a confusion of mainline Trinitarian doctrine. Jesus and God aren't the same person. Jesus Christ and God the Father share the same nature, or "essence." At this point it appears you are trying to reconcile a completely self-contradictory idea of God that is neither orthodox nor worthy of further thought.

I'd recommend finding a decent book on the Trinity, and reading through it, and then seeing where you stand on the issue. One that really helped me some years ago was McGrath's Understanding the Trinity. Order it on amazon.com for $13.

 

[BigNorsk]

One thing to realize is that we never really do completely understand God. He is unique, we have nothing which we can use as an accurate example.

How is Jesus God and man? It's a bit of a mystery.

How does person of God pray to another person of God, it's a bit of a mystery.

You will learn much more about God, but you will never learn everything or understand everything. That's just the way things are.

Many people reject that and so they make God in their own image. They insist they must understand everything or else it must not be true. Please don't go down that oh so wide path.

 

[JohnRabbit]

how can people worship a God they don't know? this has always bugged me and when i ask people about the trinity, i can never get an answer.

john 1:1 explains it.


John 1:1 ( NKJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus was God from the beginning and he was with God.

the only thing is that Jesus was known as the Word in the prehistory of it all.
and yes, he emptied himself of glory as the book of Hebrews states to be made even lower than the angels to become man for the suffering of death.

when Abraham talked with God, moses and the burning bush, Joshua and the captain of the armies of God, Moses and the 70 at mount Sinai, Ezekiel and the wheel, and Isaiah in the temple. these all saw God! but, they only saw and talked with the one referred to as The Word of God who later became The Christ, The son of God! remember that Jesus told them that he came to show them the Father.

They didn't know that the Father existed!

the Holy Spirit is not a personage of the Godhead. those who believe this can never answer questions like "why don't Jesus call the Holy Spirit father?"

Matthew 1:18 ( NKJV ) 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

and why isn't the Holy Spirit not mentioned in john 1:1

when Jesus mentioned who bared witness of him from heaven, he only mentions the Father!

 

[RevKidd]

how can people worship a God they don't know? this has always bugged me and when i ask people about the trinity, i can never get an answer.

john 1:1 explains it.


John 1:1 ( NKJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus was God from the beginning and he was with God.

the only thing is that Jesus was known as the Word in the prehistory of it all.
and yes, he emptied himself of glory as the book of Hebrews states to be made even lower than the angels to become man for the suffering of death.

when Abraham talked with God, moses and the burning bush, Joshua and the captain of the armies of God, Moses and the 70 at mount Sinai, Ezekiel and the wheel, and Isaiah in the temple. these all saw God! but, they only saw and talked with the one referred to as The Word of God who later became The Christ, The son of God! remember that Jesus told them that he came to show them the Father.

They didn't know that the Father existed!

the Holy Spirit is not a personage of the Godhead. those who believe this can never answer questions like "why don't Jesus call the Holy Spirit father?"

Matthew 1:18 ( NKJV ) 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

and why isn't the Holy Spirit not mentioned in john 1:1

when Jesus mentioned who bared witness of him from heaven, he only mentions the Father!

I tend to agree... I believe the Trinity was made to be a bigger deal orthodox wise than it ever should have. Was never taught in scripture by anyone as having anything to do with salvation.

 

[jacobs well]

In addition to what you have been writing- the Holy Spirit is referred to as the comforter-the spirit of truth, which will dwell within you. Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God according to David can be defined as Gods Spritual presence. David knew where ever he went God would always be there in Spirit.
In Luke the Holy Spirit can be defined as the power of God in reference to the incarnation.
John wrote that if we love one another, God dwelleth in us-the Holy Spirit can be defined as the spiritual indwelling of God.
Paul told us God reveals things to us by His spirit-the Holy Spirit here can be defined as the spiritual extension of the mind of God by which we learn the truth.
The Holy Spirit in the New Testament is compared to the elements-the sound of rushing, mighty wind on the day of Pentecost-Jesus likened the spirit to living water: I will pour out my spirit to all flesh(acts2:17)-Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit(Luke4:1) the New Testament writers thought of the Holy Spirit, not as a third person, but rather as a spiritual power flowing from God. The Holy Spirit not included in Pauls salutations in the introductory comments in each of his epistles
To Christ and His disciples, the Holy Spirit was the invisible influence of god in the natural world.

 

[Duckybill]

This is a great subject! I truly believe the Bible teaches us that Jesus was always God and became flesh, setting aside His Godly attributes, temporarily.

 

[Zurra]

how can people worship a God they don't know? this has always bugged me and when i ask people about the trinity, i can never get an answer.

john 1:1 explains it.


John 1:1 ( NKJV ) 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus was God from the beginning and he was with God.

the only thing is that Jesus was known as the Word in the prehistory of it all.
and yes, he emptied himself of glory as the book of Hebrews states to be made even lower than the angels to become man for the suffering of death.

when Abraham talked with God, moses and the burning bush, Joshua and the captain of the armies of God, Moses and the 70 at mount Sinai, Ezekiel and the wheel, and Isaiah in the temple. these all saw God! but, they only saw and talked with the one referred to as The Word of God who later became The Christ, The son of God! remember that Jesus told them that he came to show them the Father.

They didn't know that the Father existed!

the Holy Spirit is not a personage of the Godhead. those who believe this can never answer questions like "why don't Jesus call the Holy Spirit father?"

Matthew 1:18 ( NKJV ) 18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

and why isn't the Holy Spirit not mentioned in john 1:1

when Jesus mentioned who bared witness of him from heaven, he only mentions the Father!

to ^^^^. I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is not part of the Godhead, there are only 2 divine beings in the Godhead John 1:1-3 .
The trinity is not biblical, it cannot be authenticated in scripture. The verse that trinitarians cling too is a spurious addition to the bible 1 John 5:7-8 NKJV & KJV ( Vs 7 should end with the word witness. The remainder of v.7 & part of v.8 are no tin any ancient greek manuscript.) this passage was not originally part of the text but was added by astute scribes at a later date. It is not found in any Greek manuscripts until the 11th Century.

In addition the history of the trinity concept is quite astonishing, how Catholics adopted the pagan/greek philosophical notions to help them determine a definition. They also accepted Valentinus' perspective of the trinity who filched his info from Hermes & Plato. So in consequence this trinity doctrine is founded on pagan origin. In no way did the Apostles teach this fallacious doctrine.

I thought that was a great point with Jesus is God the Creator of the OT.
I agree with that too.

Nice posts

 

[wayseer]

So then... you guys are saying when Jesus became flesh, He lost all of the omni attributes of G-d while He was made flesh? Does this mean my understanding of Him being simply the spirit of G-d in a human body is wrong, and that He was literally the Word of G-d made flesh so He changed form (hence why He lost all of the omni attributes)?

Jesus was Yeshu ben Yoseph, a Jew living and working in Nazareth until he commenced on his own spiritual journey. After meeting up with John the Baptist he also became a eschatological prophet calling people to turn more authentically towards God as the time was short. He followed John in the idea of baptism and demonstrated his beliefs by acting our his commitment to WHYH, the God of Israel. He was killed for his troubles.

 

[Duckybill]

John 20:28 (NKJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

[Duckybill]

to ^^^^. I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is not part of the Godhead, there are only 2 divine beings in the Godhead John 1:1-3 .
The trinity is not biblical, it cannot be authenticated in scripture. The verse that trinitarians cling too is a spurious addition to the bible 1 John 5:7-8 NKJV & KJV ( Vs 7 should end with the word witness. The remainder of v.7 & part of v.8 are no tin any ancient greek manuscript.) this passage was not originally part of the text but was added by astute scribes at a later date. It is not found in any Greek manuscripts until the 11th Century.

In addition the history of the trinity concept is quite astonishing, how Catholics adopted the pagan/greek philosophical notions to help them determine a definition. They also accepted Valentinus' perspective of the trinity who filched his info from Hermes & Plato. So in consequence this trinity doctrine is founded on pagan origin. In no way did the Apostles teach this fallacious doctrine.

I thought that was a great point with Jesus is God the Creator of the OT.
I agree with that too.

Nice posts

Luke 12:10 (NKJV)
10 And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.

 

[jacobs well]

Paul said that the God the Israelites of the Old Testament knew-the one they looked to as their " Rock " of strength (Deut32:4, Psalm18:2)-was the one we know as Jesus Christ.
Notice what Paul wrote in 1Cor10:1-4 "...all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses, in the cloud and the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"

Jesus was the one who spoke to Moses and told Him to return to Egypt to bring the Israelites to freedom. Jesus was the Lord(YHWH) who caused the plagues to come on Egypt. He was the lawgiver who gave the laws to Moses. He was the Lord who dealt with Israel throughout their national history.
Jesus reveals His identity in the New Testament- " Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John8:58) Jesus was telling the Jews of the day that He was the God in the OT that they knew.
In Exodus3:13-14- Moses asked what Gods name was " I AM WHO I AM..thus you shall say to the children of Israel of Israel, I AM has sent me to you"

 

[Tenten]

What do you mean by "orthodox"?

This assumes that being tempted is itself a form of sin. What is the basis for this assumption?

Jesus, as a man, is inherently capable of sin. Your question is really a matter of the relationship between the divine and human natures of Christ.

Again, your question is really a matter of the relationship between the divine and human natures of Christ.

I would suggest that you are asking wrong-headed questions, similar in vein to "If God can do anything, can he create a mountain too heavy for him to move?" Such inquiry assumes a false metaphysical consistency of the theological doctrines in question. By this I mean that you must understand such doctrines in the manner in which they were intended, if you want to get anything of value out of them.

In Ephesians 5:2 the image of the smell of the burnt offering is used to convey the righteous nature of self-sacrifice. When we give of ourselves in love for another, God is pleased.

Again, you are interpreting this passage solely in terms of your own interest in the nature of Christ.

I don't want to invalidate your question... After all, many people have asked this question, and will continue to ask it. However, I wonder why you ask it. Perhaps if I knew why you were asking this question, I might be able to help you answer it. I think that the problem may be that you are framing your question incorrectly.

Of course, an important historical observation is that no passage in the Bible presupposes the closely defined Trinitarian theology later defined by the creeds and councils. And they certainly have no interest in making that issue "simple" or "easy." If you want the convoluted and philosophical answers of the folks who first enunciated Trinitarian theology, go read St. Augustin's On the Trinity. Not exactly a light read...

Okay, your interpretation of these passages clearly demonstrate a confusion of mainline Trinitarian doctrine. Jesus and God aren't the same person. Jesus Christ and God the Father share the same nature, or "essence." At this point it appears you are trying to reconcile a completely self-contradictory idea of God that is neither orthodox nor worthy of further thought.

I'd recommend finding a decent book on the Trinity, and reading through it, and then seeing where you stand on the issue. One that really helped me some years ago was McGrath's Understanding the Trinity. Order it on amazon.com for $13.

Well, when I said orthodox, I mean I do not want some answer that is heretical.

Okay, I can appreciate that, my questions are in regards to the divinity and humanity of Christ. I don't get it. I am not asking these questions without having attempted to read and comprehend the nature of Jesus. I really have done a lot of reading on it, and it only served to confuse me more. I will definitely hunt down St. Augustine's writings on the trinity so thank you for that... and I am guessing that relationship is not something that can be explained in a simple post (or at least that is what I have gathered from all that I read) but....

What do you mean Jesus is not the same person as G-d? All I have ever heard from pastor's and Christians is that "Jesus is G-d" so how can they not be the same person? I clearly heard that statement several hundred times over before I converted to Christianity. Can you please explain?