A Question for Catholics

[Merlin475]

Hello Catholics,
Why do you venerate Mary the mother of Jesus? She was a sinner and fell short of the glory of God like you and me. What is the significance of praying to Mary? Salvation is a gift through Jesus Christ alone, yes?

 

[zippy2006]

I see you are a Lutheran. It is worth asking: Why did Luther venerate Mary? Why did Luther hold to the Immaculate Conception? Why did Luther hold that Mary was sinless?

 

[Merlin475]

I see you are a Lutheran. It is worth asking: Why did Luther venerate Mary? Why did Luther hold to the Immaculate Conception? Why did Luther hold that Mary was sinless?

Luther didn't venerate Mary in the same way that Catholics do by praying to her and believing she has the power to intercede on their behalf even to this day. I should have specified what I meant by veneration. I was implying the way that Catholics venerate Mother Mary.

Martin Luther did not believe Mary was sinless. She is certainly to be honored for being selected to bear the perfect Son of God, and she herself admits this to be an incredible blessing. She found favor with God because she was ready to accept His will.

It is interesting you bring up Immaculate Conception because that is a Catholic doctrine and a Catholic interpretation of what Martin Luther said about Mary. You do not find this teaching anywhere in the LCMS Lutheran church

 

[chevyontheriver]

Hello Catholics,
Why do you venerate Mary the mother of Jesus? She was a sinner and fell short of the glory of God like you and me. What is the significance of praying to Mary? Salvation is a gift through Jesus Christ alone, yes?

What did Luther have to say about Mary? If you can look at Mary like Luther did there may be some basis for a conversation on the subject. If you look at her like a Radical Reformer then it might be just a waste of time.

 

[Merlin475]

What did Luther have to say about Mary?

He acknowledged her place as the Mother of God and believed for her to have had a special calling that no else had which was to bear and raise the Son of God. It's quite a stellar thing for Mary to so readily submit to the will of God. This is why she is so blessed: she openly and humbly submitted to God's will to be conceived through works of the Holy Spirit. I honor those deeds of hers, but I do not pray to her and she does not hold any power in my salvation. That resides in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[chevyontheriver]

He acknowledged her place as the Mother of God and believed for her to have had a special calling that no else had which was to bear and raise the Son of God. It's quite a stellar thing for Mary to so readily submit to the will of God. This is why she is so blessed: she openly and humbly submitted to God's will to be conceived through works of the Holy Spirit. I honor those deeds of hers, but I do not pray to her and she does not hold any power in my salvation. That resides in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ

Would you then find this article about Luther to be in error?

Martin Luther’s Exceptionally “Catholic” Devotion to Mary

Luther’s Mariology is (ironically) closer to that of the Catholic Church today than to the modern-day Lutheranism.

www.ncregister.com

 

[Solo81]

Hello Catholics,
Why do you venerate Mary the mother of Jesus? She was a sinner and fell short of the glory of God like you and me. What is the significance of praying to Mary? Salvation is a gift through Jesus Christ alone, yes?

We venerate her for many reasons: she's the Mother of God; she's the new Eve; she's the Mother of all believers; she's the Woman clothed with the Sun and has a crown of 12 stars; she's a powerful intercessor with God who will crush the serpents head under her heel; she's Immaculate; she loved Jesus more than any other person who lived and she wants to help all her other children love Jesus more also.
These are some of the reasons why we venerate her. There are more.
Why pray to Mary? She's a powerful intercessor.

 

[J-316]

Catholics venerate Mary because they see her as the mother of Jesus and a model of faith and obedience to God. While Catholics believe salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, they honor Mary for her unique role in God’s plan. Catholics view her as intercessor and advocate, someone who prays on their behalf. Veneration doesn’t mean worship but rather it is about respect and love for her as a powerful example of faith and humility.

 

[tampasteve]

ADMIN HAT ON
This thread has been moved to Denomination Specific Theology.
ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[David Lamb]

she's a powerful intercessor with God who will crush the serpents head under her heel;

No, that just is not so. The verse in Genesis about crushing head and heel says:

“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."” (Ge 3:15 NKJV)

The seed of the woman is male, so unless you believe that Mary was a man in disguise, it cannot refer to her. The verse says, "He shall bruise your head." This is a reference to Jesus Christ.

 

[jas3]

Would you then find this article about Luther to be in error?

Martin Luther’s Exceptionally “Catholic” Devotion to Mary

Luther’s Mariology is (ironically) closer to that of the Catholic Church today than to the modern-day Lutheranism.

www.ncregister.com

This article is one everyone should read to establish a baseline for future discussion. Luther (and most other early Protestants) held a much higher view of Mary than do modern Protestants, with very few exceptions. The more unusual position, even today, is that of refusal to venerate the Mother of God, not that of veneration.

 

[concretecamper]

Hello Catholics,
Why do you venerate Mary the mother of Jesus? She was a sinner and fell short of the glory of God like you and me. What is the significance of praying to Mary? Salvation is a gift through Jesus Christ alone, yes?

Being the Mother of God is certainly worthy of veneration, isn't it?

Mary being a sinner is a relatively new idea. I prefer to stick with what was taught from the beginning of the Church.

James says the prayer of the righteous is powerful. Mary's prayer is powerful.

Yes, Salvation is through Jesus Christ.

 

[concretecamper]

No, that just is not so. The verse in Genesis about crushing head and heel says:

“And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."” (Ge 3:15 NKJV)

The seed of the woman is male, so unless you believe that Mary was a man in disguise, it cannot refer to her. The verse says, "He shall bruise your head." This is a reference to Jesus Christ.

Gen 3:14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Douay Rheims

 

[David Lamb]

Gen 3:14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Douay Rheims

That doesn't fit with those bible verses which say that Jesus is the conqueror of the devil, for example:

“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,” (Heb 2:14 NKJV)

Is there any bible verse that says that Mary is the destroyer of the devil?

 

[concretecamper]

That doesn't fit with those bible verses which say that Jesus is the conqueror of the devil, for example:

“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,” (Heb 2:14 NKJV)

Is there any bible verse that says that Mary is the destroyer of the devil?

I understand it doesn't fit with your narrative. But the Woman crushes the serpent's head, that we know for sure.

 

[David Lamb]

I understand it doesn't fit with your narrative. But the Woman crushes the serpent's head, that we know for sure.

How do we know for sure? Perhaps there is somebody who knows biblical Hebrew who can say what the original Hebrew of the verse about crushing heel and head actually says. Just using String's Concordance, there doesn't seem to be a Hebrew word for he or his/she or her in the verse. But as I said, the bible does make it clear elsewhere that it is Jesus who conquers Satan, not Mary.

 

[concretecamper]

How do we know for sure? Perhaps there is somebody who knows biblical Hebrew who can say what the original Hebrew of the verse about crushing heel and head actually says. Just using String's Concordance, there doesn't seem to be a Hebrew word for he or his/she or her in the verse. But as I said, the bible does make it clear elsewhere that it is Jesus who conquers Satan, not Mary.

Everything good is done by/through the power of Jesus, so I'm not sure what point you are making

 

[David Lamb]

Everything good is done by/through the power of Jesus, so I'm not sure what point you are making

I was answering your post where you said, "But the Woman crushes the serpent's head, that we know for sure." I asked how we can know that for sure. I said that we read in the bible that it is Jesus Who defeats Satan, not Mary.

 

[concretecamper]

I was answering your post where you said, "But the Woman crushes the serpent's head, that we know for sure." I asked how we can know that for sure. I said that we read in the bible that it is Jesus Who defeats Satan, not Mary.

great, you have your answer, Genesis Chapter 3 tells us.

 

[Lukaris]

On the cross, the Lord said to John to behold “your mother “( John 19:25-27).She is a mother, ever Virgin to all of us and we are to honor our mother and father ( Exodus 20:12).