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A question for Calvinists

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folk_rocker_4jc

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Simple statement of fact.

Then back up your claim.

Yeah, and I'm still waiting on you to provide proof that Calvinism is not evangelism friendly. As it, you are just sounding like you are boasting in the size of a church as if that is somehow suppose to proove evangelistic zeal.


If results are not an indication of work, or the "fruits of labor", what is?

But, your implication is that non-Calvinist evangelists (which itself is an oxymoron) attribute their efforts to their work. And that sounds like man boasting to me.
Of course, Calvinists always see boasting whether it's actually there or not. Btw I'm not afiliated w/either AOG or CC, so I can't be "boasting" for them...I'm merely "reporting".

And when you state "we... lead the Protestant world in missions" that's not boasting? But I challenge that assertion by referring to the sucess of others, all of the sudden it's boasting?

"Non-Calvinist evangelists..." would be the early church fathers prior to Augustine. They pretty much held to beliefs identical to Arminians on soteriology.


Well, obviously musicians can never be wrong. Perhaps you would like to actually offer some proof instead of giving us this "I have a friend" line. I'm not currently impressed with that.
Well if someone who lives in that country and sees it for himself every day throughout his whole life isn't good enough for you, what other "proof" would you like? " I could email him, I suppose & get an answer on his sources in a couple of days, but I'd like to know what I'm asking for.
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
Then back up your claim.
The Southern Baptists ought to get you started. It is a denomination founded by Calvinists and which is once again speaking with the spirit of the Reformation.


folk_rocker_4jc said:

"Non-Calvinist evangelists..." would be the early church fathers prior to Augustine. They pretty much held to beliefs identical to Arminians on soteriology.

So, even if I agree that there were some Arminians before Augustine (you would probably want to offer your proof), your beliefs were pretty much non-existent from about 400AD until Arminius joined the scene and began to trouble the Reformation.

Talk about your gates of hell prevailing Batman!!!


folk_rocker_4jc said:
Well if someone who lives in that country and sees it for himself every day throughout his whole life isn't good enough for you, what other "proof" would you like? " I could email him, I suppose & get an answer on his sources in a couple of days, but I'd like to know what I'm asking for.
Yeah, one man's personal subjective bias is not good enough. Please provide the following:
  1. Doctrinal evidence that the Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
  2. Actual evidence that Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
Until then, your one man rock band just won't hunt.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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The Southern Baptists ought to get you started. It is a denomination founded by Calvinists and which is once again speaking with the spirit of the Reformation.
Ok, so provide some stats on this...that they have an edge in sucess over other groups?

So, even if I agree that there were some Arminians before Augustine (you would probably want to offer your proof), your beliefs were pretty much non-existent from about 400AD until Arminius joined the scene and began to trouble the Reformation.

Talk about your gates of hell prevailing Batman!!!

LOL I can't believe you just said that...one of the key issues of the Reformation, and what led Luther to write "The Bondage of the Will" had to do with a perception that soteriology as taught by Augustine had been long lost. That also drove a lot of Calvin's arguments as well. The Church sure wasn't practising "hard core Augustinianism" by then!

The resources on the Patristics won't be hard to prove...I'll get that for you later tonite.


Yeah, one man's personal subjective bias is not good enough. Please provide the following:
  1. Doctrinal evidence that the Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
  2. Actual evidence that Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
Until then, your one man rock band just won't hunt.

I'll email him when I get home tonite, and see if he has any stats we can look at. The opposition of Luther & Calvin to world missions was told to me by a Lutheran Pastor who I took a class from in seminary on church history. I'll see what I can dig up there. Just as an fyi, my friend is actually a computer-programmer, owns a wesite hosting biz, and is a family-man, the music is just a hobby. But when you heard something that might put a chink in the sterling armour you percieve Calvinism to have, you disdained him as a "one-man rock band". This doesn't bode well for those who claim their doctrine provides true Christian humilty.
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
Ok, so provide some stats on this...that they have an edge in sucess over other groups?
Well, now I finally understand the context of your boasting that the AOG church in Korea is the largest in the world. It really doesn't matter what the "success" rate is compared to other groups. That is nothing but man boasting about his accomplishments. And I'm sure that the Lord is not too impressed with humanistic boasting.

But, what you have actually done is simply switch from talking about how Calvinism somehow stifles us Calvinists from evangelizing to boasting about who has the most. LOL! Do you really think that I or any Calvinist anywhere cares about numbers?

As a matter of plain fact, you have yet to demonstrate how our doctrine somehow supresses evangelistic efforts. And you have yet to actually document that this is actually happening.

Did you forget or are you hoping that a parlor trick will fool people into thinking that you can score points without providing any evidence.

Please provide the following:
  1. Doctrinal evidence that the Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
  2. Actual evidence that Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
folk_rocker_4jc said:
LOL I can't believe you just said that...one of the key issues of the Reformation, and what led Luther to write "The Bondage of the Will" had to do with a perception that soteriology as taught by Augustine had been long lost. That also drove a lot of Calvin's arguments as well. The Church sure wasn't practising "hard core Augustinianism" by then!

The resources on the Patristics won't be hard to prove...I'll get that for you later tonite.
So, is that a concession on your part that your doctrine is not to be found for some 1000 years of church history?


folk_rocker_4jc said:
I'll email him when I get home tonite, and see if he has any stats we can look at. The opposition of Luther & Calvin to world missions was told to me by a Lutheran Pastor who I took a class from in seminary on church history. I'll see what I can dig up there. Just as an fyi, my friend is actually a computer-programmer, owns a wesite hosting biz, and is a family-man, the music is just a hobby. But when you heard something that might put a chink in the sterling armour you percieve Calvinism to have, you disdained him as a "one-man rock band". This doesn't bode well for those who claim their doctrine provides true Christian humilty..
Perhaps you were not paying attention when I said that I could care less what a single person with a bias has to say about Calvinist mission efforts. If you have any evidence, you should really present it and quit being just another in a long list of persons who likes to bash Calvinism.

Please provide the following:
  1. Doctrinal evidence that the Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
  2. Actual evidence that Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
 
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Wrigley

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folk_rocker_4jc said:


I'll email him when I get home tonite, and see if he has any stats we can look at. The opposition of Luther & Calvin to world missions was told to me by a Lutheran Pastor who I took a class from in seminary on church history. I'll see what I can dig up there. Just as an fyi, my friend is actually a computer-programmer, owns a wesite hosting biz, and is a family-man, the music is just a hobby. But when you heard something that might put a chink in the sterling armour you percieve Calvinism to have, you disdained him as a "one-man rock band". This doesn't bode well for those who claim their doctrine provides true Christian humilty.
Hey, Woody is my friend. I can vouch that the Reformed Churches take God's commend to preach the Gospel very seriously.
 
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CCWoody

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Wrigley said:
Hey, Woody is my friend. I can vouch that the Reformed Churches take God's commend to preach the Gospel very seriously.
I'm so glad you are here. I was beginning to think I'd not have any evidence to back up my claims. Now that I have a friend here who will say so, this ought to settle things once and for all.

WHEW!
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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Well, now I finally understand the context of your boasting that the AOG church in Korea is the largest in the world. It really doesn't matter what the "success" rate is compared to other groups. That is nothing but man boasting about his accomplishments. And I'm sure that the Lord is not too impressed with humanistic boasting.

But, what you have actually done is simply switch from talking about how Calvinism somehow stifles us Calvinists from evangelizing to boasting about who has the most. LOL! Do you really think that I or any Calvinist anywhere cares about numbers?
You are a little bit slow, so I am going to spell out what has transpired so you can be brought up to speed:

1. You boasted that your tradition was 1st in evangelism.
2. I disagreed, and cited evidence to the contrary, i.e. other groups doing better missions/evangelism.
3.You accused me of boasting, and have yet to even prove your 1st assetion.


It wasn't ME who made that claim intially it was YOU. And you still have not grappeled with or faced up to the fact that this is a boast on YOUR part!

So, is that a concession on your part that your doctrine is not to be found for some 1000 years of church history?
The fact that they weren't in line with Luther's ideas about predstination & free will for OVER THE LAST 1,000 years of history was part of the reason for his dispute. No, "co-operative grace" was pretty much the norm from the NT on until the Reformers came on the scene! (There! Have I made my postion clear on this for you now?)

Please argue from actualites in history...you might do better with this...;)

Perhaps you were not paying attention when I said that I could care less what a single person with a bias has to say about Calvinist mission efforts. If you have any evidence, you should really present it and quit being just another in a long list of persons who likes to bash Calvinism
You know, I don't actually know where he stands on issues related to Calvinism & soteriology. He could be quite Reformed in his beleifs for all I know...he just shared with me an honest critique of the church in his homeland. (Allthough I doubt he's Calvinist, since most people who live in the contries where Calvinism was most prevalent tend to be against it, due to what they have witnessed. They throw eggs @Calvin's statue in Geneva! I got a reference for that, too if you like!) He also told me some bad things about the Mennonites in Holland. I go to a Mennonite Church and can accept a bad report like that...how come you can't ...who has the bias here??

I care very deeply about people and thier expereinces and am interested in their stories. Too bad you don't. Well, ok...if i was going to say I know this guy who can testify the Reformed chruch in his homeland has been nothing but a utopia of Christian life and activity, you would say "let's hear it!"

Please provide the following:
  1. Doctrinal evidence that the Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
  2. Actual evidence that Reformers are anti-Evangelistic.
Working on it. First I'm going to justify my claim of the histrocity of the Arminian-Cooperative Grace virewpoint, the other stuff will be last.


 
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rnmomof7

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CCWoody said:
I'm so glad you are here. I was beginning to think I'd not have any evidence to back up my claims. Now that I have a friend here who will say so, this ought to settle things once and for all.

WHEW!

Our church supports several US and over seas missions and well as having several out reaches to teens .

Our teens do foreign missions in the summer

We also do local home to home visits a couple times a year..

Just following a long tradition

Many of the greatest evangelists and missionaries which the world has ever seen were convinced Calvinists George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, John Paton and David Brainerd were all committed to the doctrines of grace as the biblical understanding of the gospel. The father of the modern missionary movement, William Carey, was a five point Calvinist, as was Adoniram Judson, the first foreign missionary from America."
 
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Gamecock

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
Many of the Reformed tradition have actually opposed evangelisn and missions outreach. I'm not saying they are all like this, but you cannot deny it's there. Did you know that there are some 800 "Reformed" churches in The Netherlands, all claiming to be the "true" one? And that the "Evanglicals" (Reformed chruches shun that term in that country) are the ones who get along and can work with each other accross denominational lines? I know this, because I have a fellow musician friend who lives there.
Odd, Calvin sent countless missionaries out from Geneva.
Remember Dr Livingston? Presbyterian Missionary
Korea has 2,283,107 Presbyterians.
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
The fact that they weren't in line with Luther's ideas about predstination & free will for OVER THE LAST 1,000 years of history was part of the reason for his dispute. No, "co-operative grace" was pretty much the norm from the NT on until the Reformers came on the scene! (There! Have I made my postion clear on this for you now?)

Please argue from actualites in history...you might do better with this...;)
I'd just thought I'd let you in on something before I hit the report button on ya....
I know my playbook and I know the history of Predestination throughout the entire history of the church. So, alas, I'm not as slow as you think. I'm just giving you a little more rope....
 
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Wrigley

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Gamecock said:
Odd, Calvin sent countless missionaries out from Geneva.
Remember Dr Livingston? Presbyterian Missionary
Korea has 2,283,107 Presbyterians.
And if I rememeber correctly, the Korean church is sending missionaries to the countries that first sent missionaries to Korea. So, maybe a revival of the Nederland church will be the result of Korean Presbyterians.
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
So they has no problem with predestination conflicting with missionary impulse...they didn't HAVE such an impulse!
Let's also clear up the facts by pointing out that you were the first to claim that us EVIL Calvinists don't have a missionary impulse. I responded to you.

So, alas, your facts seem a bit off. I'm merely amusing myself by seeing just how much unfactual and historically inaccurate claims you are going to make.

Now, that I have a few more knowledgable of Calvinist history friends here, I'll sit back and watch your claims evaporate under the weight of evidence. You see, I have friends too....
 
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CCWoody

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Did anyone call for...


jpj2.gif

John Paul Woody.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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Fist off, I NEVER stated that all the Reformed tradition in all part of history has opposed evanglism. I merely stated this was a position of the Reformers. I also pointed out the oppostion to evangelism does exist in several Reformed quarters and this has caused problems. Go back and read it again, the exact post that I wrote.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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The Transforming Power of Grace
by Thomas C. Oden





This is worth hunting up even if its out of print. Oden basically surveys grace as it was taught by different Christian traditions througout history. Als critically examinez the Augustine/Pelagius controversy, and sheds light on why his Wesleyan/Arminian postiton is different from Pleagianism & Semi-pelagianism.

[size=+2]The Transforming Power of Grace[/size]​
By Thomas C. Oden
Nashville, Abingdon Press, 1993. 208 pp. $16.95.

Thomas Oden, author of a three-volume systematic theology, here focuses on a careful examination of the doctrine of grace. Once again, he follows the method of presenting what he understands to be the ecumenical consensus of the church as particularly expressed in Scripture, the patristic writers, the medieval consensus, and classical Reformation theology. While he introduces this study as a contribution to Christian spiritual development, he is quite clear that it is not the experience of grace with which he is concerned but the description of God's grace in its manifold forms as presented in classical theology.

The reader is presented with the classical categories in the discussion of grace. It often seems that one is getting the Summa Theologica digested and without the objections and answers. Only on the issues of grace and freedom (Pelagius) and election (Arminius) is there extended discussion and the recognition of serious division in the "consensual tradition." There is little effort to relate to contemporary theological discussions or to issues about grace in the life of the Christian. In the effort to avoid the individualism and narcissism of contemporary religious life, Oden stresses the covenant character of grace and in a remarkable way relates "call" (klesis) to the community (ekklesia).

The book is a useful comprehensive summary of the classical teaching about grace as God's objective work, and, for study groups, it might provide an interesting basis for discussion involving a more contemporary and experiential exploration of the life of faith as the reception of grace.

C. Benton Kline
Columbia Theological Seminary
Decatur, GA.


Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity
by David W. Bercot



stars-5-0.gif
The truth is hard to swallow...Isn't it?, August 8, 2000
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Reviewer: A reader from Canton, OH USA [/size][/font]Wow! Bercot lays it on the line. In regards to the last commentator...it is almost necessary to continue with his book "Common Sense Approach..." as well as the dictionary. This book uses only a few comments to suppport the "apparent opinions" of the fathers(e.g. one other commentator noted about Capital punishment...you can tell he didn't like that one, did he); HOWEVER, his dictionary often gives many more quotes on the various subjects noted (one can always read the writers for themselves in a number of resources available if you think he is being selective). I come from the anabaptist background he speaks of often and he mistakingly lumped us in with those that claim to be a "Pilgram church", but other than that, his history seems to be right one and consistent with historians.

The "Common Sense..." book deals with WHY these writings are so important. He tells of the objections given him such as those of the last commentator and asks, "How do we determine what the Bible says when it "appears" to be contradictory in areas; or when translation, word usage or punctuation gives it two or three possible meanings(not to mention those, such as Luther and the like, that blatently changed meanings or coerced interpretation through threats)?" Does one rely on the fourth, fifth, tenth, or twentieth generations interpretations...or do you go to the ones that walked, talked and where taught by the disciples and more importantly died horrific deaths because of their faith(something Augustine, Luther, Calvin etc. can not claim). Did the chuch go appostate...yes..but it wasn't until Constantine(4th cent.) that things got really messed up(thats why we now have seperation of church and state, we've finally learn that leason..somewhat).

Did the early fathers have differing opinions...yes, BUT not on the major precepts or doctrines. The Gnostics of then where "their" heretics and even John in Rev. calls them such. Yet these "heretics" position on salvation, election, sovereignty etc. is almost exactly the same as Augustine/Luther/Calvins reformed doctrine. WHO'S do you think is more accurate based on the apostles teachings? WHO do you think determined the NT Cannon in the first place(the same one you use today, although Luther tried to get rid of the books that didn't suit his theology)? In conclusion, it is my opinion that those that disparage this book are most likely those that have the most divergent views. Are all their writings and phylosophies applicable today? Most would say, "NO"! However, they faced the same, if not more so, types of perversion, materialism, heresy as well as governmental control, than we do. The difference is they were willing/hoping for the chance to DIE for there faith when it came to choosing between living for God or the World. Would it be extremely difficult to live as they did, today? Sure! The question is, "Why are we so afraid to live with the persecution we would likely have to endure and why are we afraid to trust GOD'S justice and protection when it comes to "actually" following the precepts such as are given in the Sermon on the Mount?" They didn't have a problem with that! Who do YOU think will have greater reward in Heaven? Just because you don't like what you hear doesn't make their doctrines any less valid. The hardest thing us Westerners can admit is that we might just possibly be WRONG!
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
Fist off, I NEVER stated that all the Reformed tradition in all part of history has opposed evanglism. I merely stated this was a position of the Reformers. I also pointed out the oppostion to evangelism does exist in several reforemed quarters and this has caused problems. Go back and read it again, the exact post that I wrote.
Let see...
I'd still maintian that Calvinism contained within it's actual context is not evangelism-friendly. ~ folk_rocker_4jc

I asked for proof, which you have yet to offer. Perhaps the 4th times the charm so I'll ask it again:
  1. Please provide doctrinal evidence that Calvinism is not evangelism-friendly.
  2. Please provide actual evidence that Calvinists are anti-evangelistic.
If not, then you are pointedly invited to take your anti-Calvinist invectives somewhere else.
 
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CCWoody

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[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Are Arminians Evangelicals?[/font]​
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The heart of the Reformation debate was, Who saves whom? Does God save sinners? Or do we save ourselves with God's help? The Roman Catholic Church was confused on that question throughout the Middle Ages, sharply divided at the time of the Reformation, but finally determined by the Council of Trent in the mid-sixteenth century that the second answer was better. God's grace is the source, but human cooperation with that grace is what makes God's saving will effective. Thus, God justifies us by making us better and that involves our own participation. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The orthodox Protestants were not over-reacting, therefore, when they regarded the Arminian denials as no different from the positions of Trent, which had declared the evangelicals "anathema." It would have been bigoted for them, therefore, to regard Trent's position as unorthodox if they were unwilling to say the same of a similar "Protestant" deviation. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So what does all of this mean for us nearly four centuries after Arminianism was condemned by the Churches of England, Scotland, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland, the French Protestants, and the evangelicals of Eastern Europe? [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the British revival of the eighteenth century, Whitefield (a Calvinist) and Wesley (an Arminian) were willing to work together as close friends and allies in the evangelistic effort. However, as Wesley began to teach that justification was not purely forensic (that is, a legal declaration), but that it depended on "moment by moment" obedience, the Calvinists who had enthusiastically supported the revival and led the evangelistic cause side by side grew increasingly worried. Late in life, Wesley recorded some very unfortunate statements in his Minutes of the Methodist Conference, including the conclusion that his own position was but "a hair's breadth" from "salvation by works." Fearing an implicit antinomianism (license) in the Reformation doctrines, Wesley urged his supporters to warn the Calvinists "against making void that solemn decree of God, 'without holiness no man shall see the Lord,' by a vain imagination of being holy in Christ. O warn them that if they remain unrighteous, the righteousness of Christ will profit them nothing!"4 John Wesley's favorite writer, William Law, wrote, "We are to consider that God only knows what shortcomings in holiness He will accept; therefore we can have not security of our salvation but by doing our utmost to deserve it." "We have," said he, "nothing to rely on but the sincerity of our endeavors and God's mercy."5 Was Law an evangelical? If so, someone owes Pope Leo an apology. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The doctrine of justification--"simultaneously justified and sinful"--is scandalous to human reason and Wesley is famous for his "Quadrilateral" of authority: scripture, tradition, experience, and reason. So much for "scripture alone"! Both the material and the formal principle of the Reformation are at least undermined, if not denied. So much of tradition, experience, and reason opposes this doctrine. One modern evangelical theologian writes, "We can love God perfectly and we can be righteous in this world even as Christ is righteous..." and adds that the Bible "leaves no place for voluntary and known sin in the life of the believer."6 Another adds, "But can it really be true-saint and sinner simultaneously? I wish it were so...Simul iustus et peccator? I hope it's true! I simply fear it's not."7 These views were presented in a volume that offered five views of sanctification from evangelical writers. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Evangelical Revival, therefore, Wesley was allowed to embrace Arminianism while retaining the use of the evangelical label, in spite of the fact that to that time evangelicalism had repudiated the position as the very error of the medieval church that precipitated the Reformation in the first place. In one of his best sermons Wesley nevertheless defined justification not as a purely forensic (legal) declaration distinct from sanctification, but as both deliverance from the guilt of sin and "the whole body of sin, through Christ gradually 'formed in his heart.'" To be justified means that one does not sin "by any habitual sin," "nor by any willful sin," "nor by any sinful desire," nor "by infirmities, whether in act, word or thought...And though he cannot say he 'has not sinned,' yet now 'he sins not.'"8 Further, the Minutes for the First Annual Methodist Conference affirm that repentance and works must precede faith, if by works one means "obeying God as far as we can." "If a believer willfully sins, he thereby forfeits his pardon." "Are works necessary to continuance of faith? Without doubt, for a man may forfeit the gift of God either by sins of omission or commission." [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Justification may be lost every time one willfully disobeys and Wesley adds, "We do not find it affirmed expressly in Scripture that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to any, although we do find that faith is imputed unto us for righteousness." This imputation or crediting of faith as our righteousness, rather than Christ's active and passive obedience, is precisely the doctrine articulated by Arminius, rendering faith a work which achieves righteousness before God. Knowing who will most likely balk against the teaching within the evangelical Church of England, Wesley asks, "Have we not then unawares leaned too much towards Calvinism" in the past? "It seems we have," he answers, equating Calvinism with antinomianism.9 Contemporary Wesleyan theologian, John Lawson, writes, "This judicious and moderating 'Arminian Evangelicalism,' which is now so largely characteristic of Anglo-Saxon Protestantism, is perhaps the most enduring and important contribution of the Methodist movement to theological understanding in the Church."10 While Wesleyans insist they affirm justification by faith alone, they define it in the same moral terms rejected by evangelicals ever since the Reformation debate. Lawson himself defines justification as "the first and all-important stage in a renewed manner of life, actually changed for the better in mind and heart, in will and action."11 Thomas Aquinas could hardly have improved on this definition. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Today, theologians such as Dr. Clark Pinnock insist on wearing the "evangelical" label while they move beyond Arminianism to an all-out denial of classical theism. Such spokespersons may insist that they are merely contributing to the ongoing evolution and upward development of doctrine, but in fact they are merely reinventing old heresies. As Arminius revived Semi-Pelagianism, Dr. Pinnock is merely advancing a revival of outright Pelagianism and Socinianism, enhanced by the latest academic craze-process theism. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once he became an Arminian, Dr. Pinnock notes, "I soon realized something would have to be done about the received doctrine of God." God is no longer timeless, changeless, or even all-knowing. After all, "decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God." Dr. Pinnock also denies original sin, admitting that on this point, as on others, he is moving beyond Arminianism. And the next domino? "Obviously it required me to reduce the precision in which I understood the substitution [of Christ on the cross] to take place."12 It must be said that if such writers can continue to be regarded as evangelical leaders (Dr. Pinnock is still a respected member of the Evangelical Theological Society), it is up to us as heirs of the Protestant Reformers to issue an apology to the Roman Catholic Church for dividing over issues no more essential than these. Original sin, the substitutionary atonement, justification, eternal judgment, and classical theism (the doctrine of God) all must go, according to Dr. Pinnock and his team of writers in A Case for Arminianism (Zondervan, 1989). "I do not think we should feel we have lost something of absolute value when we find ourselves at variance with some of the old so-called orthodox interpretations," Dr. Pinnock concludes. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From where I sit, the main problem is this: we have gone back to using "evangelical" as an adjective. As its medieval use was ambiguous, referring more to a general attitude of humility, zeal, and simple Christ-likeness, so too the contemporary use falls most often into that category. An evangelical is someone who "loves Jesus," who "wins souls," and who has a "sweet spirit." Ken Myers notes that evangelicals no longer believe in orthodoxy, but in orthopathos-a concern for right feelings rather than right thinking and worship.13 One Christian publisher released a book by a Franciscan "evangelical" titled, Evangelical Catholics. Karl Barth, the great neo-orthodox theologian, is now widely regarded in conservative Protestant circles as evangelical and reformed, even though he reinterpreted the evangelical message beyond recognition. Again, Barth may be, theoretically, correct from the biblical point of view. I do not believe that he is and that is my primary objection to neo-orthodoxy, but for those of us who hold scripture as the final test of truth, I cannot ultimately reject Barthianism because he is at variance with the creeds and confessions. Nevertheless, one can say that Barth is not an evangelical in the historic, classical sense. The same is true of "evangelical Roman Catholics" who still deny the sufficiency of scripture, justification by grace alone through faith alone, and so on. If "evangelical" means anything at all any more, it is essential that we make such distinctions. [/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Having said that, it is equally important to realize that this is not a matter of bigotry or denominational pride. We will see non-evangelicals in heaven. As I reflect on views that I used to hold, it is sobering to say the least and it reminds me that the chances are pretty good that I have a good distance to go yet. While we must believe certain essential truths in order to be saved, we are not saved by the amount of doctrine that we know. There will doubtless be Roman Catholics, Arminians, and others in Paradise who were saved by God's grace even if they, like me, did not understand or appreciate that grace as much as they should have. Nevertheless, if we are going to still use "evangelical" as a noun to define a body of Christians holding to a certain set of convictions, it is high time we got clear on these matters. An evangelical cannot be an Arminian any more than an evangelical can be a Roman Catholic. The distinctives of evangelicalism were denied by Rome at the Council of Trent, by the Remonstrants in 1610, were confused and challenged by John Wesley in the eighteenth century, and have become either ignored or denied in contemporary "evangelicalism." [/font]
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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Arminius - AStudy in the Dutch Reformation
by Carl Bangs



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The Story of the *Real* Arminius and the Dutch Reformation, January 24, 2000
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica][size=-1]Reviewer: A reader from Canberra, Australia [/size][/font]This book gives an outstanding insight into the real Arminius (c1559-1609), a second generation Dutch Reformer and one of the most important scholars involved in codifying a biblically based alternative to predestinarian Calvinism. The book details the development of Arminius' theological position and his interactions with the clergy and laity of The Netherlands and beyond. Calvinist old wives tales about Arminius and Arminians are debunked, the story of the coming of the Reformation to Holland is followed by the introduction of hard line Calvinism by refugees from the south. Although the book focuses on Arminus' life, the epilogue deals with the events immediately following his death, such as the Remonstrance and the kangaroo court (otherwise known as the Synod of Dort) that followed where some Arminians were imprisoned and Jan van Oldenbarnevelt, the grand old man of the Remonstrants and Dutch public life, was executed on trumped up charges of treason. In the words of Bangs, the conventional history of the Dutch Reformation is that "Calvinism came in, Arminius nearly ruined it, the Synod of Dort restored it. This book is dedicated to the proposition that it isn't as simple as that." This much needed book is an outstanding read, both from a historical and theological viewpoint.
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
Arminius - AStudy in the Dutch Reformation
by Carl Bangs
Are you going to quit spaming the thread with the Books of Revisionists (I'll stick to the actual pronouncements of history thankyou) and actually get around to answering my questions. This is the 5th time I'm going to ask the question:
  1. Please provide doctrinal evidence that Calvinism is not evangelism-friendly.
  2. Please provide actual evidence that Calvinists are anti-evangelistic.
If not, then you are pointedly invited to take your anti-Calvinist invectives somewhere else.
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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What exactly makes these "revisionist"? That they don't agreee with you? That they are trying to give the other side of the story? That they are championing the muted voices of truth in history that were muffled but not drowned out by the high-determinst thought-police? What makes the other position "pronouncements of history"? That they were in line with the Reformed party-line?

I recognize that bit about Arminians not being evangelical and it's from Michael Horton. (Cite your rescources, PLEASE!) I once bought his book on Grace and took it back for a refund. His appendix in that book tries to cite the Patristics on behalf of Calvinism. You can go ahead and say they are all heretics if you like, but NO serious scholar of early church history would make such a claim with a straight face! Who' being revisionist, here?
 
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