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A question for Calvinists

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theseed

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If God elects who will be save and nothing a person can do can change that , then why should we share the Gospel with others. After all, If God is going to save somone why should we tell others since it is only a matter of God's will and God's timing? If you God uses to people to take the Good News into all the world, then that would mean that he is dependant of man? Now I suppose that if one person does not answers God's call to share His Good News, then others will. But what if no one went, because they believed it did not matter because they knew God would choose.

And even though you since God has chosen them, you don't need to know who is chosen. So why go?

Now, when Calvinists, share the good news, do they tell people that they will only be saved if they are chosen? Do they tell others "you might not be chosen?" I would imagine this would be offense and turn many off.

Do Calvinist beleive that we need to share the Good News of Christ atonement for the Election?

I believe God does call his people to share the good news, and they won't hear it unless we go. Some verses to think about.


Matthew 28
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
To make disciples, we must share the Good News.
Romans 10
12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[6]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[7] 16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[8] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
How will the Jews and the Gentiles hear the Good News if no one is sent? Will God do as he did with Paul on the road to Damascus? Tell them directly? Does faith come from hear the message through the word of Christ? Or is it by God's regeneration that we are saved? Is this a conflict or the same thing?

I will sit and wait for your answers. I thank everybody who takes the time to give an honest and comphresive answers. I have no desire to debate:sick:


Shalom
 

jbarcher

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Uh...I know next to nothing about Calvinism, but the answer appears to me as obvious:

First, just because people are predestined does not mean we ignore the last commandment. We do not know who the elect are, so we can't pick and choose who we present the Gospel to. (Well, we have to present the Gospel to everyone, especially through our lives.)

And as I need to go I will post later.
 
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theseed

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sweetsoulsong said:
Uh...I know next to nothing about Calvinism, but the answer appears to me as obvious:

First, just because people are predestined does not mean we ignore the last commandment. We do not know who the elect are, so we can't pick and choose who we present the Gospel to. (Well, we have to present the Gospel to everyone, especially through our lives.)

And as I need to go I will post later.
It does not matter if we know who they are if God has picked them. If one believes that God is going to chose who will be saved, then you do not have to pick any one to hear the Gospel. You need to read it carefully next time you post. Part of Calvins argument is that we can't thwarts God's will, so I ask why go and share the good news anywhere? If God is already going to do what he is going to do.
 
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Wearynot

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Why share the gospel? The answer is quite simple, because we are called to. Our obligation to God is obedience, not full comprehension by us on how each act or each thought or each witness works in to His plan. For one to ask why should we share the gospel if God has already chosen is to assume that salvation is pre-determined but the means toward that end is not pre-determined. No one, neither Calvinist in speculating who is elect nor Arminian in speculating who will accept, is with excuse in regard to questioning who is or is not, or who will or who will not in regard to evangelizing and sharing the gospel.

 
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theseed

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For one to ask why should we share the gospel if God has already chosen is to assume that salvation is pre-determined but the means toward that end is not pre-determined. [/QUOTE]
Calvin believed that salvation is pre-determined. And if it is the means does not matter, b/c God can take care of it. So why should we share? If I can thwart the means I can thwart God's will of election. Calvinist believe everthing is predetermined.
 
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FOMWatts<><

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sweetsoulsong said:
Uh...I know next to nothing about Calvinism, but the answer appears to me as obvious:

First, just because people are predestined does not mean we ignore the last commandment. We do not know who the elect are, so we can't pick and choose who we present the Gospel to. (Well, we have to present the Gospel to everyone, especially through our lives.)

And as I need to go I will post later.
I do not believe he missed the question at all. He actually hit the nail right on the head. Just because GOD has chosen His children, as the Bible says (Eph 1), does not mena that He does not have a plan for our lives to serve Him through expression of the gospel. As a minister I am called to share the gospel with mankind. Through mine and the other minister's sharing God's chosen people are called into the kinship of Christ through introduction. Now, you said that this would mean God is dependant upon mankind to make sure these peopel are saved, but that isn't true. Think about those that died before Christ was even around...that's quite a few people. God will make a way for them to accept Christ either through the preaching of the gospel or through His judgement in the end. God knows man WAY better than that, He does not have to worry about the dependability of mankind to do what He wants He ordains things to be done a certain way. He has planned each day out and His Will will be done.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><:priest:
 
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Wearynot

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theseed said:
So why should we share? If I can thwart the means I can thwart God's will of election. Calvinist believe everthing is predetermined.
I apologize for not making myself clear. We preach the gospel because we are commanded to. Period.

God has commanded obedience of all his creatures who act not knowing in advance how all things will unfold. Our obligation is obedience.

I believe the real question, the one you really want answered can only be answered by God.
 
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FOMWatts<><

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theseed said:
Fomwatts, People in the OT were saved directly through Christ were they? They were saved by thier faith in God, like Abraham (Romans 4).
Did I say they were saved through Christ? I don't recall saying that, but in a way they are, Christ is God. Anyway, you aren't understanding what I am saying...

I am not saying yes or no to "can they still be saved if no one goes?" question because just as in Acts 10, God has DIVINE plans and appointments for our lives. You see we can not just up and decide NOT to go, god knows us better than that. Upon our path we will meet those people that God wants us to talk to and share the Gospel of Jesus the Christ with. You see there was no option for Peter, God knew Peter would go because God knew every day He had planned out for Peter(Psalms 139). Peter did not question God's call and he went because God told him to, not because he thought God couldn't do it without him.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><
 
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Covenant Heart

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First, what some Calvinists say and what Calvinism (lets try "reformed theology") teaches may differ somewhat. So where do we get our data on reformed theology? Second, your questions are broad and cannot be addressed unless we set them in their larger theological context.

If you really want to know that this system of doctrine teaches, go to the Canons of Dort in which the five points were framed, explained and defended. The Canons of Dort, Head 2 on Christ’s death and man’s redemption say this in Article 5:

"The promise of the gospel is that whosoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have eternal life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel."
We think that promiscuity is a bad thing. Promiscuity is a good thing. We are to declare and publish everywhere this gospel promise and the command to repent and believe promiscuously. Note–the summary statement even includes the "whosoever believes." That should lay to rest what reformed faith actually teaches. Whether individual churches or "Calvinists" live by this is another question. In either case, that is our theology. To those who say that reformed faith denies, "whosoever will" or who that it spurns preaching, I say, "read the Canons."

That brings us to the theological context in which we set the issues of salvation and grace. This may be frustrating for some as it is endemic of our time to divide and segment everything. We need to learn a new way of thinking (or more aptly, to rediscover an older way).

The famed five points (the Canons) were later confessional statements. Earlier documents–the Belgic Confession, 2nd Helvetic Confession and Scots Confession plus the Genevan and Heidelberg Catechisms and others also addressed the issues of sin and grace–sometimes explicitly, sometimes not. It was in response to sin and grace issues in the earlier documents that the remonstrants drafted five areas of disagreement. The Canons of Dort replied point by point–so we have five points.

But what must be seen is that where sin and grace issues occur in the earlier documents, they stand in very substantial agreement with a larger system of theology that includes (but is not limited to) the doctrine that God has one church that has existed since the beginning of the world and will continue to the end of the age, the unity of the covenant from Abraham into the eschaton, the sacraments (including infant baptism) as means of grace, the necessity of thankful obedience as the third use of the law and the amillennial ending of the world.

Although few now see it, these concepts do flow together, and the absence of each makes the confession of the others more difficult. The core issue in all this concerns the administration of grace. To set up this issue, I will use a negative example in the person of John Gill.

This "Calvinistic" Baptist certainly affirmed the five points. He held an intensified version of the third point arguing that Christ’s work was limited in sufficiency as well as in efficacy: Christ’s satisfaction was not merely (according to Gill) efficient for the elect only, it was also sufficient for the sins of the elect only. With this radical sense of election, Gill could see the entire order of salvation as taking place in eternity. Justification and adoption were now external acts of God.

Since nothing happened in time (except to enact the decree), Gill’s system had no need for a temporal order of grace. Sacraments could be seen as mere ordinances; baptism showed that the decree had been enacted. In the logic of such theology, God’s electing grace is an unmediated "bolt from the blue." No one knows where it may strike. No one can find assurance (whether through participating in covenant life or on grounds of faith or conduct) that (s)he is numbered among the elect. Who knows? We may be devoured by Satan or abandon the faith! In that context, ministry really doesn’t have much point. Those who follow Gill’s theology preach about grace more than they offer it. They have tended to ignore instruction to children and Christian missions because no human agency is needed in God’s elective work.

In contrast is the irresistible grace of the five points. Affirming that grace is unmerited, we also locate the primary working of that grace in the covenanting community of believers. There, grace is presented by word and sacrament, by preaching, teaching and disciplinary ministry–which we call the keys of the kingdom. Since the kingdom of grace has come (a-millennial view), we can preach with an expectation of blessing (God is faithful) and the extension of that kingdom.

Let’s review your questions from this perspective. When you say that "if God elects who will be save... why should we share the Gospel," you nail Gill’s theology. And "it is only a matter of God's will and God's timing," is exactly what I meant by saying that nothing was left but the execution of the decree in time.

As to "what if no one went," I answer that the Scriptures that you cite do not allow this. The command must be obeyed; if it is not obeyed, we cut off ourselves from the true church–whatever we may believe about grace and election. In reformed faith, the marks by which the church may be known include the pure preaching of God’s word.

There is no "five point" Calvinist who owns these points but refuses the other articles of a genuinely reformed theology. This isn’t about confessional loyalty. These points are not arbitrary lists of more or less biblical ideas. Rather, they are carefully embodied patterns of teaching drawn from Scripture. Brought to bear on the life of the church, they together interpret the whole of Christian existence.

The strength of our theology lies in its totality. That is precisely why we dare not separate the so-called doctrines of grace from the broader context. Without the broader theology that one church that has existed since the beginning (with the marks, sacraments [and infant baptism] as means of grace and keys), the necessity of thankful obedience, the unity of the covenant in all ages, the amillennial ending of the world, the "famed five" points are jeopardized and church health put at risk. Blessings!

Covenant Heart
 
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theseed

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convenant heart said:
Note–the summary statement even includes the "whosoever believes."


But many struggle to believe that God picks whoseover wills, which Cavinists assert.

Sacraments could be seen as mere ordinances; baptism showed that the decree had been enacted.


These things don't bother me becasue I believe that baptism is a mere ordinance, when John the Baptist baptized, it was done to show that a person is repenting of thier sins. But this is another argument for another day. I don't believe in the amillienial view either.

As to "what if no one went," I answer that the Scriptures that you cite do not allow this. The command must be obeyed; if it is not obeyed, we cut off ourselves from the true church–whatever we may believe about grace and election. In reformed faith, the marks by which the church may be known include the pure preaching of God’s word.


I see your point here and have to agree. But what about God's desire for all to be saved? Does this contradict his decree for only some to be saved? (1 Tim. 2.3-4)
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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It is interesting to note, however that both Calvin and Luther believed the great commision was fullfilled in the age of the apostles. So they has no problem with predestination conflicting with missionary impulse...they didn't HAVE such an impulse!

The ones who challenged the Magesterial Reformers on that notion were the most Biblical wing of the Reformation- that of the early Anabaptists.
 
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CCWoody

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theseed said:
If God elects who will be save and nothing a person can do can change that , then why should we share the Gospel with others.
Well, I don't know if a Calvinist has actually answered the question so I'll answer it.

The same LORD, who has in His mercy chosen to Elect a number of persons for ultimate glorification out of Adam's fallen mass, has also ordained the means of accomplishing the calling which He will communicate that Election to them.

"Faith comes by hearing... the Word of God."

But, if you believe that the gospel is only the means whereby Salvation is communicated to a fallen mass, then you do not have the correct (complete) gospel. There would not have been any good news to the nation of Israel, that already enjoyed the Salvation of the Lord. This would not be a gospel because it wouldn't be new news at all. They already believe they were the elect of the LORD.

The gospel was nothing less than the announcement of the kingdom of God, just exactly as was preached by John in preparation of the coming of the Lord, by the Lord himself, and by the Apostles after him:
Now after that Iohn was committed to prison, Iesus came into Galile, preaching the Gospel of the kingdome of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdome of God is at hand: repent and beleeue the Gospel.
(Mar 1:14-15 GB)
So, if your only goal in preaching the gospel is to convert sinners, then you are not following the expressed command laid out in Matthew that we are to preach the gospel as a witness unto the nations. Salvation is of the Lord. We ought to preach the gospel, and let the Holy Spirit work his miracle of regeneration and bring the elect into the fold. Then, we may make disciples out of them.
Now thankes be vnto God, which alwaies maketh vs to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the sauour of his knowledge by vs in euery place. For wee are vnto God the sweete sauour of Christ, in them that are saued, and in them which perish. To the one we are the sauour of death, vnto death, and to the other the sauour of life, vnto life: and who is sufficient for these things?
(2Co 2:14-16 GB)
Belive thou this?
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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The gospel was nothing less than the announcement of the kingdom of God, just exactly as was preached by John in preparation of the coming of the Lord, by the Lord himself, and by the Apostles after him:
Now after that Iohn was committed to prison, Iesus came into Galile, preaching the Gospel of the kingdome of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdome of God is at hand: repent and beleeue the Gospel.
(Mar 1:14-15 GB

So, if your only goal in preaching the gospel is to convert sinners, then you are not following the expressed command laid out in Matthew that we are to preach the gospel as a witness unto the nations. Salvation is of the Lord. We ought to preach the gospel, and let the Holy Spirit work his miracle of regeneration and bring the elect into the fold. Then, we may make disciples out of them.
That's a very good explaination of what the gospel is according to a Biblical definition. It doesn't follow however, that Calvinism naturally contains within itself (other than explainations of it by later interpereters) a reason to fullfill the great commission. See my previous post.
 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
That's a very good explaination of what the gospel is according to a Biblical definition. It doesn't follow however, that Calvinism naturally contains within itself (other than explainations of it by later interpereters) a reason to fullfill the great commission. See my previous post.
Sure it does! We want the Lord to return. I'm not sure what it is to which you are making a reference that Calvin believed the Great Commission was fulfilled in the age of the Apostles. Certainly, they made disciples out of every single nation, tribe, tonge and people known at that time. Paul, if I remember, alone preached the gospel throughout the entire known world with the possible exception of Spain. But, really, the opinions of 2 men is not the sum and substance of Calvinist thought.

If we Calvinists weren't concerned with evangelism and the Great Commission, we would not lead the Protestant world in missions, even if we are a minority of professing Christians today.

We simply understand our proper place. Salvation is of the Lord. We are unworthy servants and only do what is our duty to do. The Lord has things perfectly in hand and will call those who are his in his own perfect time.
 
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mrversatile48

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The Bible says that God does not take pleasure in the death of anyone, & that God commands all, everywhere to repent, believe the gospel & be saved

The last thing Jesus said, before He ascended back to Heaven, was our top priority Great Commission, at the end of both Matthew & Mark:-

"All authority in heaven & on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go & make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, & of the Son, & of the Holy Spirit, & teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" - Matthew 28:18/20

The end of Mark adds the promise to confirm the faithful preaching of His Word by signs, wonders & miracles, just as we see all over the world in this climax generation of all history, because Joel 2:28/32 clearly promises a mighty outpouring of God's Spirit, with "wonders in the heavens & signs on Earth...before the coming of the great & dreadful day of the Lord. & everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"
 
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folk_rocker_4jc

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I'm not sure what it is to which you are making a reference that Calvin believed the Great Commission was fulfilled in the age of the Apostles.
That's a historical statement...look it up.

But, really, the opinions of 2 men is not the sum and substance of Calvinist thought.
I agree here...for instance, it's held in many quarters that the doctrine of Limited Atonement wasn't actually Calvin, but a later development.

If we Calvinists weren't concerned with evangelism and the Great Commission, we would not lead the Protestant world in missions, even if we are a minority of professing Christians today.
Not sure how you are justifying this claim. Maybe you mean historically? In any case today the Assemblies of God leads the world in a lot of quarters- the largest church in the world is an AOG church in Korea, they are the fastest growing group in South America. Here in the U.S. if there was one group who was the leader in conversions over the last 30 yrs or so, I'd say that had to be Calvary Chapel.

And of course, there's dear Billy Ghaham- whom some Calvinists wince to even be associated with- the most sucessful evangelist in our lifetime.

I'd still maintian that Calvinism contained within it's actual context is not evangelism-friendly. If some have gone ahead and obeyed Christ on this, then it's due to the work of the Spirit and not their "doctrinal knowledege". Even you, as a Calvinist have to believe that...;)

Many of the Reformed tradition have actually opposed evangelisn and missions outreach. I'm not saying they are all like this, but you cannot deny it's there. Did you know that there are some 800 "Reformed" churches in The Netherlands, all claiming to be the "true" one? And that the "Evanglicals" (Reformed chruches shun that term in that country) are the ones who get along and can work with each other accross denominational lines? I know this, because I have a fellow musician friend who lives there.



 
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CCWoody

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folk_rocker_4jc said:
Not sure how you are justifying this claim. Maybe you mean historically?


Simple statement of fact.

folk_rocker_4jc said:
I'd still maintian that Calvinism contained within it's actual context is not evangelism-friendly. If some have gone ahead and obeyed Christ on this, then it's due to the work of the Spirit and not their "doctrinal knowledege". Even you, as a Calvinist have to believe that...;)


Yeah, and I'm still waiting on you to provide proof that Calvinism is not evangelism friendly. As it, you are just sounding like you are boasting in the size of a church as if that is somehow suppose to proove evangelistic zeal.

But, your implication is that non-Calvinist evangelists (which itself is an oxymoron) attribute their efforts to their work. And that sounds like man boasting to me.

folk_rocker_4jc said:
Many of the Reformed tradition have actually opposed evangelisn and missions outreach. I'm not saying they are all like this, but you cannot deny it's there. Did you know that there are some 800 "Reformed" churches in The Netherlands, all claiming to be the "true" one? And that the "Evanglicals" (Reformed chruches shun that term in that country) are the ones who get along and can work with each other accross denominational lines? I know this, because I have a fellow musician friend who lives there.
Well, obviously musicians can never be wrong. Perhaps you would like to actually offer some proof instead of giving us this "I have a friend" line. I'm not currently impressed with that.
 
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