A Question for Calvinists

[Ragman]

Today at 03:18 PM Reformationist said this in Post #65



I'd read that as God is the one who preserves all men as, without Him, we would cease to exist, at least in the ordered manner in which we do.  As for "specially" or "malista" I think the issue is that God, in His divine grace, sustains all of the inhabitants of the world and delivers (even moreso than those whom are not His elect) in the form of His salvitic grace unto salvation those that He has chosen for that purpose.

God bless

Reformationist:

In some ways, as hard as it may seem, we are thinking along the same lines.  I too agree that God is the one who preserves all men; I particularly believe that this sustaining takes place in the Son (Col. 1:17, Acts 17:28).  However, we draw different conclusions from this truth. 

I see this "divinity" of Christ affecting all humanity when He becomes human in the incarnation.  You on the other hand, as it appears to me, believe that Christ did not affect the humanity he was holding together within Himself by virtue of His incarnation.

Do you see that the connection between Christ and all humanity by virtue of His divinity as being only "organic" but not "spiritual" in any way?  How is it, in your opinion, that it could not affect all humanity?

Wondering?

 

[settergren]

Today at 02:24 PM Ragman said this in Post #70




You need to argue with Paul on that one.  He is the one, by the Spirit, who calls God the "Saviour of all men" distinguishing some of them from "those who believe".  Now you can say that God is the Saviour of all men by virture of His creating and sustaining them.  But that is not what it says.  That is what you say.

I am not arguing with Paul's words I am agruing with your interpretation of his words. When it says Christ is the savior of all men it does not mean that Christ saves all men. It can't mean that because we know that not all are saved. Many are called few are choosen. Yet it does say that Christ is the savior of all men, thus there must be some meaning to it other than that Christ saves all men. My earlier post clears this up. Christ is the savior of all men in the sense that he sustains and gives life to all men, but to his elect he is a savior of their souls. How can their be different degrees of "saving"? Essentially this is what this verse says, Christ is the savior of&nbsp;all men, but he is saves his elect to eternal life&nbsp;since the word esspecialy is...malista<I>mal'-is-tah</I>Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb &#956;&#945;&#769;&#955;&#945; mala (<I>very</I>); (adverb) <I>most</I> (<I>in</I> <I>the</I> <I>greatest</I> <I>degree</I>) or <I>particularly:</I> - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

&nbsp;

This implies that Christ is not the savior of all men in the greatest or chief degree. Meaning he ins't their savior in the sense that he saves all men giving them eternal life. What then? What conclution can we come to? Christ saves all men in a much different sense than he does those who believe.

This is where I say that he saves all men in the sense that he gives them life on earth and gives them provisions, health... a good life in general.

Where you mess up is where you don't differentiate the two. You must, otherwise you can be saved without believing and this we know is not true. You can't just read the text and take it for it's direct literal meaning. You have to consider it and take into account the rest of the bible. Only those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved. If you disagree then you are buying into a totaly different Gospel. I pray that that is not the case.

 

[Allen2]

Bird: I do not believe in a limited atonement, but accept the most natural sense of words such as "all", "every" and "world". In Isaiah 53:6 it says: "We ALL, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us ALL." Both alls have the same scope.
God bless, Al

 

[Ragman]

Today at 07:18 PM settergren said this in Post #82




I am not arguing with Paul's words I am agruing with your interpretation of his words. When it says Christ is the savior of all men it does not mean that Christ saves all men. It can't mean that because we know that not all are saved. Many are called few are choosen. Yet it does say that Christ is the savior of all men, thus there must be some meaning to it other than that Christ saves all men. My earlier post clears this up. Christ is the savior of all men in the sense that he sustains and gives life to all men, but to his elect he is a savior of their souls. How can their be different degrees of "saving"? Essentially this is what this verse says, Christ is the savior of&nbsp;all men, but he is saves his elect to eternal life&nbsp;since the word esspecialy is...malista<I>mal'-is-tah</I>Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb &#956;&#945;&#769;&#955;&#945; mala (<I>very</I>); (adverb) <I>most</I> (<I>in</I> <I>the</I> <I>greatest</I> <I>degree</I>) or <I>particularly:</I> - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

&nbsp;

This implies that Christ is not the savior of all men in the greatest or chief degree. Meaning he ins't their savior in the sense that he saves all men giving them eternal life. What then? What conclution can we come to? Christ saves all men in a much different sense than he does those who believe.

This is where I say that he saves all men in the sense that he gives them life on earth and gives them provisions, health... a good life in general.

Where you mess up is where you don't differentiate the two. You must, otherwise you can be saved without believing and this we know is not true. You can't just read the text and take it for it's direct literal meaning. You have to consider it and take into account the rest of the bible. Only those who believe in Jesus Christ are saved. If you disagree then you are buying into a totaly different Gospel. I pray that that is not the case.

1. We don't know that Christ will not save all men.&nbsp; There have been many comments made recently here that we don't know who or how many will be saved.&nbsp; To say that Christ will not save all men&nbsp;is your assertion.&nbsp; Of course you believe that is the Bible's assertion, I don't necessarily concur.&nbsp; Therefore, if Christ might possibly save all men, (seeing that we don't know how many or who will be saved) this would make Him the Saviour of the all men.

2. However, I will concur that this is a distinction made between the salvation the believer experiences and that of the one who does not believe or is yet to believe.

Indeed we should be careful that we do not buy into a totally different gospel.&nbsp; The claims of Christ call us to trust in Him, that He is, in His person and work, is the One who unites us with His Father.&nbsp; We remember that "eternal life" is not merely unending existence.&nbsp; For in that sense even those in hell would have been given eternal life.&nbsp; But eternal life signifies that the life given is none other than the life of God shared with us in the Son and by the Spirit.

But He is the Saviour of the world.

It pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him I say that whether they be things in earth or things in heaven.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 08:39 PM Ragman said this in Post #84




1. We don't know that Christ will not save all men.&nbsp;

Yes we do

_ Rev 20:11__ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
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_ Rev 20:12__ And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
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_ Rev 20:13__ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
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_ Rev 20:14__ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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_ Rev 20:15__ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.