A Question for Calvinists

[CCWoody]

Today at 11:09 AM bird said this in Post #53 

woody,

when i asked jerry of what we are to repent, he said we are to repent of our sins.  is that what you believe also?

if your answer is yes, then what would be the reason for jesus' death upon the cross? 

bird

Why was Jesus' death necessary:  Without the shedding of blood there is not remission of sin.

Look, bird (and Ragman), Jesus' death didin't merely make salvation possible; it made salvation certain for all whom it was intended.

• The Lord actually cleansed the elect of all sin by His one offering.
• The Lord actually perfected forever the elect by His one offering.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Allen2]

When Christ died, He died for the sins of the world: this includes OT saints like Abraham and his kin who never heard the future gospel and experienced what we might call conversion. If they served the "Most Hi God"(as He was called then before Moses' burning bush), they were God's people. In effect their faith and the appropriate animal sacrifices were God's "Master Card" with a view to the sacrifice of the Coming One.
All of this to say that believing in Christ , means we (to use Paul's phrase) are "in Christ": all that God has accomplished thru His Son is ours for good: "It is because of [God] that you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us...our rts, holiness and redemption" (1Cor. 1:30). All sins, pre- and post-conversion are forgiven, but as we live daily and confess our sins we actualize what has been accomplished for us. Like Jesus told Peter at the Last Supper: "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean" Jn.13:10. We are clean before God and only need to deal with whatever might lessen our fellowship with God and His people. Sorry for giving a long answer to your short question! Al

 

[bird]

Today at 07:45 PM Allen2 said this in Post #62

When Christ died, He died for the sins of the world: this includes OT saints like Abraham and his kin who never heard the future gospel and experienced what we might call conversion. If they served the "Most Hi God"(as He was called then before Moses' burning bush), they were God's people. In effect their faith and the appropriate animal sacrifices were God's "Master Card" with a view to the sacrifice of the Coming One.
All of this to say that believing in Christ , means we (to use Paul's phrase) are "in Christ": all that God has accomplished thru His Son is ours for good: "It is because of [God] that you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us...our rts, holiness and redemption" (1Cor. 1:30). All sins, pre- and post-conversion are forgiven, but as we live daily and confess our sins we actualize what has been accomplished for us. Like Jesus told Peter at the Last Supper: "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean" Jn.13:10. We are clean before God and only need to deal with whatever might lessen our fellowship with God and His people. Sorry for giving a long answer to your short question! Al

 

thank you al for that explanation.  i do appreciate it.  do you hold a limited view of the atonement?

 

bird

 

bird

 

[settergren]

Yesterday at 11:56 PM Ragman said this in Post #41




That is not what this verse means.  If being the Saviour of all men meant that He is the creator and sustainer of all he would have said so.  He is not the creator and sutainer of all men, especially those that believe.  This verse means that He is the Saviour of all men, especially those that believe.  It means that He reconciled the entire race of humanity, for this pleased the Father.  It means that the Father was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting men's sins against them.   And it means that those who see this and believe it, experience the glory of this reconciliation.

Your definition of saved must be defined by your own dictionary. God can only be a savior to those whome he actually saves. It's like saying a lifegauard is the savior of all the people drowning in the pool, especially those whom he actually pulls out of the water. Obviously he isn't the savior of those who drown and die. Get it right buddy. You need to.

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 12:55 PM settergren said this in Post #64




Your definition of saved must be defined by your own dictionary. God can only be a savior to those whome he actually saves. It's like saying a lifegauard is the savior of all the people drowning in the pool, especially those whom he actually pulls out of the water. Obviously he isn't the savior of those who drown and die. Get it right buddy. You need to.

I agree sg.  I would also like to point out that, in the context of eternal salvation, this would have to be read "specifically those that believe."  I'm not sure that that is the necessary context so, in this case I'd read that as God is the one who preserves all men as, without Him, we would cease to exist, at least in the ordered manner in which we do.  As for "specially" or "malista" I think the issue is that God, in His divine grace, sustains all of the inhabitants of the world and delivers (even moreso than those whom are not His elect) in the form of His salvitic grace unto salvation those that He has chosen for that purpose.

God bless

 

[Ragman]

Today at 10:10 AM Reformationist said this in Post #47



Ragman, you keep saying "the majority of mankind" as if it's a fact or even a figure that Calvinists use to describe the efficacy of God's grace.  Did someone, particularly a Calvinist, use that term in reference to the number of reprobate individuals?  The truth is that no one knows who will be saved.  So, to say "the majority of mankind" is a leap that I doubt any would make.

God bless

Reformationist:

Fair enough.  Often the language of "broad is the way to destruction and narrow is the way to life, few be there that find it" is used to describe the quantity of folks who are lost vs. the quantity who are saved.  But I agree, none of us truly know the soul of another.

Thanks,

 

[Ragman]

Today at 10:25 AM bird said this in Post #49




 

reformationist,

"the truth is that no one knows who will be saved".....does that mean then that "at best" our assurance is but a hope?  and if it be but a hope, then "dare we hope that all men will be saved?"

 

bird

Good point Bird

 

[Ragman]

Today at 01:43 PM Reformationist said this in Post #60



Only those who have been regenerated will repent (turn from evil by turning to God in obedience).

God bless

Does that mean we are saved prior to our repentance by virtue of our regeneration?

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:12 PM Ragman said this in Post #67




Good point Bird

I don't know if I addressed bird's post which you comment on here but if I didn't let me say that I have "hope" that I am saved.  However, "hope" is not an reference to uncertainty.  It is an eager awaiting of the fulfillment of the Will of God of which I know to be true.

God bless

 

[Ragman]

Today at 02:55 PM settergren said this in Post #64




Your definition of saved must be defined by your own dictionary. God can only be a savior to those whome he actually saves. It's like saying a lifegauard is the savior of all the people drowning in the pool, especially those whom he actually pulls out of the water. Obviously he isn't the savior of those who drown and die. Get it right buddy. You need to.

You need to argue with Paul on that one.  He is the one, by the Spirit, who calls God the "Saviour of all men" distinguishing some of them from "those who believe".  Now you can say that God is the Saviour of all men by virture of His creating and sustaining them.  But that is not what it says.  That is what you say.

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:45 PM Allen2 said this in Post #62

When Christ died, He died for the sins of the world: this includes OT saints like Abraham and his kin who never heard the future gospel and experienced what we might call conversion. If they served the "Most Hi God"(as He was called then before Moses' burning bush), they were God's people. In effect their faith and the appropriate animal sacrifices were God's "Master Card" with a view to the sacrifice of the Coming One.

I have to think about this..because for some it was a ritual sacrifice and not saving .

Rituals do not save.

Those that the scriptures point to are those that believed...and it was credited to them for righteousness. That was not the entire nation of Israel...

All of this to say that believing in Christ , means we (to use Paul's phrase) are "in Christ": all that God has accomplished thru His Son is ours for good: "It is because of [God] that you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us...our rts, holiness and redemption" (1Cor. 1:30). All sins, pre- and post-conversion are forgiven, but as we live daily and confess our sins we actualize what has been accomplished for us. Like Jesus told Peter at the Last Supper: "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean" Jn.13:10. We are clean before God and only need to deal with whatever might lessen our fellowship with God and His people. Sorry for giving a long answer to your short question! Al

As Martain Luther noted


1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, "Repent" (Matthew 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:21 PM Ragman said this in Post #68



Does that mean we are saved prior to our repentance by virtue of our regeneration?

Nothing we do apart from God results in an obligatory action on the part of God.  In this instance, I am saying that just because a person repents and believes does not then obligate God to regenerate them.  On the contrary, no man will repent and believe in the first place until regnerated.  It is this very regeneration that is the product of God's forgiveness due to the propitiatory work of the Son.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:26 PM Reformationist said this in Post #72



Nothing we do apart from God results in an obligatory action on the part of God.  In this instance, I am saying that just because a person repents and believes does not then obligate God to regenerate them.  On the contrary, no man will repent and believe in the first place until regnerated.  It is this very regeneration that is the product of God's forgiveness due to the propitiatory work of the Son.

God bless

Let me put it like this: Consider God's grace of forgiveness to be the capsule that brings to us that which we need to be found acceptable to Him.  We are regenerated (brought back to life), imputed with the righteousness of Christ, given faith, a desire to do His Will, the ability to do His Will, a desire to put off our sinfulness, a desire to be righteous, an ever increasing awareness of our sinfulness, a desire to do selfless works, etc.  These are all parts of the equation of the forgiveness of God.

God bless

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:21 PM Ragman said this in Post #68



Does that mean we are saved prior to our repentance by virtue of our regeneration?

NO

As Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

Before God gives you that new heart you do not will to repent or will to believe ..

As soon as God regenerates a man He will desire God above all else and seeing Himself in relation to our holy God He will repent and believe

Man must repent and believe to be saved..

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 02:33 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #74

NO

As Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

Before God gives you that new heart you do not will to repent or will to believe ..

As soon as God regenerates a man He will desire God above all else and seeing Himself in relation to our holy God He will repent and believe

Man must repent and believe to be saved..

Are you saying that there is a difference between regeneration and salvation?  I know one is being born again and another is being given eternal life but they are inseparable.  You cannot be born again and then not be saved so it's a bit inconsequential, don't you think?

God bless

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 05:57 PM Reformationist said this in Post #75



Are you saying that there is a difference between regeneration and salvation?  I know one is being born again and another is being given eternal life but they are inseparable.  You cannot be born again and then not be saved so it's a bit inconsequential, don't you think?

God bless

Yes there is a difference..and it would be inconsequential except one of the major doctrinal differences between the arminians and calvinists is they believe that regeneration follows salvation...now a dead man can not repent and believe ..so regeneration MUST preceed repentance and salvation

Unless a man is born again he can not see the kingdom of God..If a man can not see it he can not desire it..

 

[bird]

Today at 10:23 PM Reformationist said this in Post #69



I don't know if I addressed bird's post which you comment on here but if I didn't let me say that I have "hope" that I am saved.  However, "hope" is not an reference to uncertainty.  It is an eager awaiting of the fulfillment of the Will of God of which I know to be true.

God bless

 


reformationist,

when you say "saved" what do you mean exactly,   and what would be the order of salvation?

 

bird

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 03:26 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #76

Yes there is a difference..and it would be inconsequential except one of the major doctrinal differences between the arminians and calvinists is they believe that regeneration follows salvation...now a dead man can not repent and believe ..so regeneration MUST preceed repentance and salvation

Unless a maqn is born again he can not see the kingdom of God..If a man can not see it he can not desire it..

I agree with all this so I'm a bit confused where we're talking past each other, though that is what we must be doing.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 04:07 PM bird said this in Post #77

 


reformationist,

when you say "saved" what do you mean exactly,   and what would be the order of salvation?

 

bird

Well, we are eternally saved when we are given the gift of eternal life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit works in us to progressively save and deliver us from our iniquity, and we are finally and completely saved from all falleness when our Father glorifies us.

God bless

 

[bird]

Today at 12:13 AM Reformationist said this in Post #79



Well, we are eternally saved when we are given the gift of eternal life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit works in us to progressively save and deliver us from our iniquity, and we are finally and completely saved from all falleness when our Father glorifies us.

God bless

i'm afraid you'll have to walk me through a little slower than that!  let's start with:

1.  i am born into this world a sinner.  physically alive, but somehow dead and separated from god, whose disposition towards me is one of indifference and possibly hate.  if i die as an infant, does that mean i go to hell seeing as how i never had an opportunity to repent and believe?

not sure if that's how you see it, but from all i've read here, that's what i've gathered so far.

 

so, if that pretty much is how things start out, take me through to the next step.

 

bird