A Question for Calvinists

[Ragman]

Today at 12:30 AM settergren said this in Post #39

 Ragman, you said Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe. Let's take a look at this verse and see what it means first before we use it to back up our position...

1Ti.4:10For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. Commentary by Gill:

Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact.

Specially of those that believe; whom though he saves with an eternal salvation; yet not of this, but of a temporal salvation, are the words to be understood: or as there is a general providence, which attends all mankind, there is a special one which relates to the elect of God; these are regarded in Providence, and are particularly saved and preserved before conversion, in order to be called; and after conversion, after they are brought to believe in Christ, they are preserved from many enemies, and are delivered out of many afflictions and temptations; and are the peculiar care and darlings of providence, being to God as the apple of his eye: and there is a great deal of reason to believe this, for if he is the Saviour of all men, then much more of them who are of more worth, value, and esteem with him, than all the world beside; and if they are saved by him with the greater salvation, then much more with the less; and if he the common Saviour of all men, and especially of saints, whom he saves both ways, then there is great reason to trust in him for the fulfilment of the promises of life, temporal and eternal, made to godliness, and godly persons.

That is not what this verse means.  If being the Saviour of all men meant that He is the creator and sustainer of all he would have said so.  He is not the creator and sutainer of all men, especially those that believe.  This verse means that He is the Saviour of all men, especially those that believe.  It means that He reconciled the entire race of humanity, for this pleased the Father.  It means that the Father was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting men's sins against them.   And it means that those who see this and believe it, experience the glory of this reconciliation.

 

[bird]

Today at 03:56 AM CCWoody said this in Post #37



The GOSPEL! We don't preach a lie, we preach the gospel.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

yes, but my question is...what is "the gospel" you preach?  i have not heard you state it yet.

 

bird

 

[bird]

Today at 04:30 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #38



My message to the "man on the street"?

1. You are a sinner, and deserve death and hell.
2. You cannot save yourself
3. Jesus Christ is God's only provision for sin.
4. You must repent of your sin, and embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Is there any other Gospel? All those who repent and believe in Christ will be saved, All.

 

jerry,

 

of what, or for what are men to repent?  

 

bird

 

[Jerry_M]

Today at 06:33 AM bird said this in Post #43



 

jerry,

 

of what, or for what are men to repent?  

 

bird

Their sin.

For what do you believe men ought to repent?

 

[bird]

Today at 02:24 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #44



Their sin.

For what do you believe men ought to repent?

i thought that jesus was the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world...and that god was in christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them.  if our own repenting of our own sin is what enables god's forgiveness, then why did christ die?   is our repentance what saves us?

 

bird

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 07:29 AM bird said this in Post #42




yes, but my question is...what is "the gospel" you preach?  i have not heard you state it yet.

 

bird

I preach the gospel of the kingdom of God.  What gospel do you preach?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Reformationist]

Yesterday at 11:46 PM Ragman said this in Post #40

If you call telling people that the majority of mankind was created for the sole purpose of going to hell in order to show forth God's glory the gospel, it is a wonder it was ever considered "good news".

Ragman, you keep saying "the majority of mankind" as if it's a fact or even a figure that Calvinists use to describe the efficacy of God's grace.  Did someone, particularly a Calvinist, use that term in reference to the number of reprobate individuals?  The truth is that no one knows who will be saved.  So, to say "the majority of mankind" is a leap that I doubt any would make.

God bless

 

[bird]

Today at 03:22 PM CCWoody said this in Post #46




I preach the gospel of the kingdom of God.  What gospel do you preach?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

woody,

 

i was asking more for specifics.  do you subscribe to jerry's definition of what the "gospel" is?  iow, when you present the gospel to someone, what exactly do you tell them?

 

bird

 

[bird]

Today at 04:10 PM Reformationist said this in Post #47



Ragman, you keep saying "the majority of mankind" as if it's a fact or even a figure that Calvinists use to describe the efficacy of God's grace.  Did someone, particularly a Calvinist, use that term in reference to the number of reprobate individuals?  The truth is that no one knows who will be saved.  So, to say "the majority of mankind" is a leap that I doubt any would make.

God bless

 

reformationist,

"the truth is that no one knows who will be saved".....does that mean then that "at best" our assurance is but a hope?  and if it be but a hope, then "dare we hope that all men will be saved?"

 

bird

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 11:25 AM bird said this in Post #49
reformationist,

"the truth is that no one knows who will be saved".....does that mean then that "at best" our assurance is but a hope?  and if it be but a hope, then "dare we hope that all men will be saved?"

I think what reformationist meant by what he said is that no MAN knows who will be saved in the sense that neither you nor I knows for certain either the salavation of a particular person or the total number of all who will be saved. Certainly the Lord knows both.

As far as all men being saved, I think there is ample Biblical evidence that that will not be the case (unless you want to append the phrase "if there be any" to every passage speaking of the ******). But just as we don't know the number of the saved, we also do not know the number of the ******.

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 10:22 AM bird said this in Post #48

woody, 

i was asking more for specifics.  do you subscribe to jerry's definition of what the "gospel" is?  iow, when you present the gospel to someone, what exactly do you tell them? 

bird

Yes, Jerry's 4 points are all true!

I cannot tell you exactly what I say in any particular situation as it varies just as it did for the apostles:  "But when the believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized." (Acts 8:12)

Nevertheless, the simplest expression of the gospel is this:  Repent and Believe.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 08:41 AM frumanchu said this in Post #50



I think what reformationist meant by what he said is that no MAN knows who will be saved in the sense that neither you nor I knows for certain either the salavation of a particular person or the total number of all who will be saved. Certainly the Lord knows both.

As far as all men being saved, I think there is ample Biblical evidence that that will not be the case (unless you want to append the phrase "if there be any" to every passage speaking of the ******). But just as we don't know the number of the saved, we also do not know the number of the ******.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.  You said it much more elegantly than I did but this was exactly my point.  Thanks.

God bless

 

[bird]

Today at 04:58 PM CCWoody said this in Post #51



Yes, Jerry's 4 points are all true!

I cannot tell you exactly what I say in any particular situation as it varies just as it did for the apostles:  "But when the believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized." (Acts 8:12)

Nevertheless, the simplest expression of the gospel is this:  Repent and Believe.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

woody,

when i asked jerry of what we are to repent, he said we are to repent of our sins.  is that what you believe also?

if your answer is yes, then what would be the reason for jesus' death upon the cross? 

bird

 

[Jerry_M]

bird,

You sure seem hung up about repentance.

The first Christian sermon, preached on the day of Pentecost by Peter, certainly saw the need for repentance from sin, a requirement that endures to this day:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord - Acts 3:19

 

[bird]

Today at 05:30 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #54

bird,

You sure seem hung up about repentance.

The first Christian sermon, preached on the day of Pentecost by Peter, certainly saw the need for repentance from sin, a requirement that endures to this day:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord - Acts 3:19

 

do i? 

the verse from act 3:19 was  spoken after the healing of the lame man at the gate beautiful.

 

perhaps you meant to quote this one spoken on the day of pentecost:

"now when they heard this (that god hath made that same jesus, whom ye have crucified, both lord and christ), they were pricked in their heart, and said unto peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do?  then peter said to them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of jesus christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the holy ghost.  for the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off,  as many as the lord our god shall call."   (acts 2:36-39)


 

bird

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 12:09 PM bird said this in Post #53

woody,

when i asked jerry of what we are to repent, he said we are to repent of our sins.  is that what you believe also?

if your answer is yes, then what would be the reason for jesus' death upon the cross? 

To repent means to turn away from. In repenting we are turning away from our sinfulness. We are changing direction. Such an act does not eliminate the need for the sins already committed to be atoned for. Repenting is a forward-going action...it does not erase or render moot the past. The sins we do commit must be accounted for, and Christ's death was the atonement for those sins so that the penalty for them was paid. Without such atonement, repentance would not matter.

 

[bird]

Today at 06:48 PM frumanchu said this in Post #56



To repent means to turn away from. In repenting we are turning away from our sinfulness. We are changing direction. Such an act does not eliminate the need for the sins already committed to be atoned for. Repenting is a forward-going action...it does not erase or render moot the past. The sins we do commit must be accounted for, and Christ's death was the atonement for those sins so that the penalty for them was paid. Without such atonement, repentance would not matter.

 

repentance (metanoia) means a change of mind.

 let me see if i'm understanding you correctly.  are you saying that jesus paid only for the sins that we commit prior to our conversion?

bird

 

[frumanchu]

Today at 02:18 PM bird said this in Post #57
repentance (metanoia) means a change of mind.

 let me see if i'm understanding you correctly.  are you saying that jesus paid only for the sins that we commit prior to our conversion?

There is more than one word translated "repentance" in Scripture. I know of at least seven. Each means different things in different contexts.

And no, I do not believe that Jesus died only for the sins committed prior to our conversion. If that were so, the only people to make it to heaven would be those who died immediately at conversion and those who lived sinless lives from the moment of conversion on.

I think you are trying to create a type of connection between repentance and salvation that does not exist, bird.

 

[bird]

Today at 07:34 PM frumanchu said this in Post #58



There is more than one word translated "repentance" in Scripture. I know of at least seven. Each means different things in different contexts.

And no, I do not believe that Jesus died only for the sins committed prior to our conversion. If that were so, the only people to make it to heaven would be those who died immediately at conversion and those who lived sinless lives from the moment of conversion on.

I think you are trying to create a type of connection between repentance and salvation that does not exist, bird.

then what is the connection between repentance and salvation?

 

bird

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 11:42 AM bird said this in Post #59




then what is the connection between repentance and salvation?

 

bird

Only those who have been regenerated will repent (turn from evil by turning to God in obedience).

God bless