A Question for Calvinists

[Ragman]

Calvinists affirm that there is a group of the human race that has been "elect" by God for salvation and that some have not been elect, and are therefore ******.  (Actually there is that segment of Calvinism that says that some of the human race was created for the express purpose to be ****** and thereby show forth the glory of God).

My question is this, "How do the elect know that they are elect"?  Where does their assurance come from?

 

[SoccerAaron]

God has regenerated you and thus giving you a desire to obey and worship him.

 

[Gideon4God]

he, he, he

 

[settergren]

You have asked a very good question.

First, God has His people whom He elected. This is clear in the Bible I and assume that that is already accepted as truth.1Pe 2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for <I>God's</I> own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few chosen.

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained <I>to be</I> conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Secondly, these people, the elect,&nbsp;will come unto salvation.

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

These two verses are very similar. They both pertain to the Father's will and they both say a certain group of people will be raised up at the last day. The point is, the two groups of people, those whom the father has given to Christ (the elect) and those who behold and believe on Christ are the very same people. Meaning the elect will believe in Christ and they will have eternal life.

How then do the elect become&nbsp;aware of God's grace towards them? They aren't born with this innate understanding that they are chosen by God. When and how then do they become aware?

What should be asked is what initiates salvation? Does man or God? Also, if man is the initiator instead of God then you can still ask the same question, "How does a Christian know if they are a Christian?"

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

We know that no man can come unto Christ unless they are drawn by His Father. Thusly, those who do come to Christ where certainly drawn by the Father. Also, those who are drawn by the Father WILL be raised up in the last day.

Now, where in all this do we become aware of our new condition. Here is a passage that shows this change. We must first understand man's condition before the law. The law brings sin and death since we are unable to fulfill it; this is called sin. However, carnal man is a slave to such sin and is unable to break free. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. However, Christ does this for us. He fullfilled the law and through His attoning death on the cross his elect are counted as righteous; those who have vicariously fullfilled the law. In this, we are made aware of our new condition where we see our need for a saviour in the fact that we cannot fullfill the law without Christ. Here is the passage:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Verse 24 shows our initial condition and our awareness of our helplessness. Only God can can deliver us from ourselves, but when He does we have an experience wherein we realize our old condition and how in it were were helpless. This makes us aware of exactly why and what Christ did for us. When Christ delivers us we are able to serve the law of God with our minds.Luk 24:45 Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;

Not only our mind is changed but our heart is also.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

You also asked, "where does our assurance come from?"1Th 1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election, 1Th 1:5 how that our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and <I>in</I> much assurance

You see, if God is the one whom initiated our salvation then it is also up to God to keep us in salvation. As stated earlier God will not lose any of his elect (John 6:39).

What better assurance is there than to know that salvation is in God's hands from start to finish, rather than in ours.

Phi 2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.Phi 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:

&nbsp;

God Bless!

 

[frumanchu]

10th April 2003 at 07:10 PM Ragman said this in Post #1

My question is this, "How do the elect know that they are elect"?&nbsp; Where does their assurance come from?

It's the same answer as to the question "How does a person know they are saved?" Election is a Biblical fact, we only disagree on the nature and purpose of it. It is fair to say both sides agree that in the end, "elect" and "saved" will be synonymous. All the elect will be saved and all the saved will be elect.

Now if you're asking how one can know who ELSE is elect, that's another matter. None of us can know for sure, and although it is possible to make an 'educated guess' based on the fruits one sees, ultimately the only person's salvation we can be sure of is our own.

 

[Andrew]

Every Calvinist will tell you he is part of the elect (but of cse right?)

What I disagree abt with Calvinism (or hypercalvinism) is the teaching that Christ died only for the elect. ie He did not shed his blood for all men but only for the elect bunch. So verses like "for God so loved the world..." are interpreted as for God so love the "elect".

 

[Job_38]

11th April 2003 at 12:10 AM Ragman said this in Post #1

Calvinists affirm that there is a group of the human race that has been "elect" by God for salvation and that some have not been elect, and are therefore ******.&nbsp; (Actually there is that segment of Calvinism that says that some of the human race was created for the express purpose to be ****** and thereby show forth the glory of God).

My question is this, "How do the elect know that they are elect"?&nbsp; Where does their assurance come from?

Their assurance comes from being 'born again." Really, what the gentlement before me said.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Every Calvinist will tell you he is part of the elect (but of cse right?)

What I disagree abt with Calvinism (or hypercalvinism) is the teaching that Christ died only for the elect. ie He did not shed his blood for all men but only for the elect bunch. So verses like "for God so loved the world..." are interpreted as for God so love the "elect".

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So do all men go to heaven?

&nbsp;

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 11:56 AM frumanchu said this in Post #5



It's the same answer as to the question "How does a person know they are saved?" Election is a Biblical fact, we only disagree on the nature and purpose of it. It is fair to say both sides agree that in the end, "elect" and "saved" will be synonymous. All the elect will be saved and all the saved will be elect.

Now if you're asking how one can know who ELSE is elect, that's another matter. None of us can know for sure, and although it is possible to make an 'educated guess' based on the fruits one sees, ultimately the only person's salvation we can be sure of is our own.

Hmmm...very, very&nbsp;nicely said.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 07:06 PM Andrew said this in Post #6

Every Calvinist will tell you he is part of the elect (but of cse right?)

What I disagree abt with Calvinism (or hypercalvinism) is the teaching that Christ died only for the elect. ie He did not shed his blood for all men but only for the elect bunch. So verses like "for God so loved the world..." are interpreted as for God so love the "elect".

It's funny, well not really.&nbsp; Ragman asked in his OP "How do the elect know that they are elect"?&nbsp; Where does their assurance come from?" and you take that as an opportunity to regale us with the latest, though not different than your normally proffered, insight of how Calvinism is unbiblical.&nbsp; Why is it that you feel the need to address a thread wherein the entire purpose of the thread was to ask a question about something you don't believe in in the first place?&nbsp; If you so adamantly disagree with reformed theology just start another thread&nbsp;so you can discuss&nbsp;how it is unbiblical.

God bless

 

[bird]

Today at 06:34 AM Reformationist said this in Post #9



It's funny, well not really.&nbsp; Ragman asked in his OP "How do the elect know that they are elect"?&nbsp; Where does their assurance come from?" and you take that as an opportunity to regale us with the latest, though not different than your normally proffered, insight of how Calvinism is unbiblical.&nbsp; Why is it that you feel the need to address a thread wherein the entire purpose of the thread was to ask a question about something you don't believe in in the first place?&nbsp; If you so adamantly disagree with reformed theology just start another thread&nbsp;so you can discuss&nbsp;how it is unbiblical.

God bless

&nbsp;

you know i think your picture of you and your baby sleeping on your chest (at least it looks like he/she's asleep)....to me that is a picture of how we are embraced in our father's arms...content, at peace...oblivious to all else but our father's heartbeat.&nbsp; that, to me, says it all.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; we have been included in the son's relationship&nbsp;with &nbsp;his father....by the incarnation, life, death,&nbsp; resurrection and ascension of the eternal son who was sent into the far country to find us, and bring us home.

&nbsp;

bird

 

[Ragman]

The question put forward is on the subject of assurance, from a Calvinist's perspective, which delves into the subject of faith and what or who is the object of one's faith.

When asking "how does one know that they are elect, where does their assurance come from", it is, as frumanchu states above, not that different of a question from "how does one know they are saved".

I suppose the point I'm getting at is to generate a discussion about the object of one's faith and how that brings them assurance.

In the replies above, it appears that the vote goes to "that one knows they are elect and receives their assurance from the event that they personally have been born again and now notice a desire to obey God. My responding question would be that it appears that they are basing their faith on the subjective experience of being "born again." Would that not then cause one to be more introspective to determine if what they believe to be a "born again" experience and desire to obey God is truly "genuine" and therefore qualifies as a bonified evidence of election, thus giving assurance that one is saved?

I understand that Calvinists believe that limited atonement (therefore limited election) is biblical, therefore that is why they believe it. But I'm wondering if they feel that making one's personal experience the object of their faith in order to gain assurance of their salvation is logical. Wouldn't it make more sense that Christ would be the object of our faith, therefore we could rely upon His sufficiency in person and work as the source of our assurance?

 

[CCWoody]

No sudden movements!

Woody is here!

Ragman asks "How can you be sure." ~~~ Well, I've met the Lord. The Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I AM a son of God. Simple!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

P.S. Am I going to have to spank my fellow Reformed for not letting me know about a thread like this?

 

[Reformationist]

Today at 03:52 AM Ragman said this in Post #11

The question put forward is on the subject of assurance, from a Calvinist's perspective, which delves into the subject of faith and what or who is the object of one's faith.

When asking "how does one know that they are elect, where does their assurance come from", it is, as frumanchu states above, not that different of a question from "how does one know they are saved".

I suppose the point I'm getting at is to generate a discussion about the object of one's faith and how that brings them assurance.

In the replies above, it appears that the vote goes to "that one knows they are elect and receives their assurance from the event that they personally have been born again and now notice a desire to obey God. My responding question would be that it appears that they are basing their faith on the subjective experience of being "born again." Would that not then cause one to be more introspective to determine if what they believe to be a "born again" experience and desire to obey God is truly "genuine" and therefore qualifies as a bonified evidence of election, thus giving assurance that one is saved?

I understand that Calvinists believe that limited atonement (therefore limited election) is biblical, therefore that is why they believe it. But I'm wondering if they feel that making one's personal experience the object of their faith in order to gain assurance of their salvation is logical. Wouldn't it make more sense that Christ would be the object of our faith, therefore we could rely upon His sufficiency in person and work as the source of our assurance?

I guess that depends on what you mean by a "personal experience of being born again."&nbsp; Are you talking about water baptism?

God bless

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 05:52 AM Ragman said this in Post #11

But I'm wondering if they feel that making one's personal experience the object of their faith in order to gain assurance of their salvation is logical. Wouldn't it make more sense that Christ would be the object of our faith, therefore we could rely upon His sufficiency in person and work as the source of our assurance?

OK, I'll bite!

It is the non-Calvinist who has made his personal experiences the object of their faith in order to gain assurance of their salvation.&nbsp; This is why you hear them say things like:&nbsp; I decided.... followed by a host of things which they were smart enough to decide to do.&nbsp; This is also why you hear non-Calvinist churches talk about how many decisions for Christ they had in a particular service or month.

OTOH, this is not the Calvinistic way of thinking at all:

• We don't believe in order to secure our salvation ~~ the school of Consequential Rationality. (The HEY, GOD, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?? school of thought.)
• We believe that the Lord has secured our salvation ~~ the school of Biblical Rationality. ("We believe BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT (end of story).)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Reformationist]

Amen Woody.&nbsp; Nicely said.

 

[bird]

Today at 04:18 PM CCWoody said this in Post #14



OK, I'll bite!

It is the non-Calvinist who has made his personal experiences the object of their faith in order to gain assurance of their salvation.&nbsp; This is why you hear them say things like:&nbsp; I decided.... followed by a host of things which they were smart enough to decide to do.&nbsp; This is also why you hear non-Calvinist churches talk about how many decisions for Christ they had in a particular service or month.

OTOH, this is not the Calvinistic way of thinking at all:

• We don't believe in order to secure our salvation ~~ the school of Consequential Rationality. (The HEY, GOD, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?? school of thought.)
• We believe that the Lord has secured our salvation ~~ the school of Biblical Rationality. ("We believe BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT (end of story).)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

when you speak of "the lord has secured our salvation"....what do you mean by "salvation?"

&nbsp;

bird

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 10:35 AM Reformationist said this in Post #15

Amen Woody.&nbsp; Nicely said.

Thanks, it is the defining spiritual problem of Modern American pelagian "Churchianity".

HEY, GOD, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME??

Their&nbsp;entire premise is predicated upon an assumption of Consequentialist Rationality:

"Do this, in order to secure these benefits"

....and the presumption that such consequentialism is the only valid form of Rationality undergirds the errors of many Christian and pseudo-Christian critics of Calvinism.
But Consequentialism is not, in fact, the only "valid" school of Ethical Rationality. They entirely overlook the discipline of Deontological Rationality -- the school of Biblical Rationality:

"Do this BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT (end of story)."

The truth of the matter is that Calvinists don't "make sense" according to Consequentialist Rationality.

And this bothers us not one bit. We are not Consequentialist Rational Ethicists in the first place.
Calvinistic ethics are, and have ever been, fundamentally Deontological.

• The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, `Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you. "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, `Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, `Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'"

Man rebelled against God. It is pure Grace, pure love, that He has ordained to save any, when it would satisfy His perfect justice to destroy us all. Man FELL. He does not deserve Heaven.

We believe it.
Why don't they??

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

Today at 02:25 PM bird said this in Post #16

when you speak of "the lord has secured our salvation"....what do you mean by "salvation?"

&nbsp;

bird

The Lord has secured with certainty that all those&nbsp;upon whom He bestowed His saving grace will be with Him forever.

There is....

nothing more to be said
nothing more to be done

There is only the enjoyment of the certaintity that I will be with the Lord forever.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.&nbsp; ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo

 

[bird]

15th April 2003 at 09:05 PM CCWoody said this in Post #18



The Lord has secured with certainty that all those&nbsp;upon whom He bestowed His saving grace will be with Him forever.

There is....

nothing more to be said
nothing more to be done

There is only the enjoyment of the certaintity that I will be with the Lord forever.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.&nbsp; ~ Bishop Saint Augustine of Hippo

&nbsp;

so, if i understand you correctly, your definition of salvation is "being with the lord forever?"

&nbsp;

bird

 

[Ragman]

Yesterday at 10:18 AM CCWoody said this in Post #14



OK, I'll bite!

It is the non-Calvinist who has made his personal experiences the object of their faith in order to gain assurance of their salvation.&nbsp; This is why you hear them say things like:&nbsp; I decided.... followed by a host of things which they were smart enough to decide to do.&nbsp; This is also why you hear non-Calvinist churches talk about how many decisions for Christ they had in a particular service or month.

OTOH, this is not the Calvinistic way of thinking at all:

• We don't believe in order to secure our salvation ~~ the school of Consequential Rationality. (The HEY, GOD, WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?? school of thought.)
• We believe that the Lord has secured our salvation ~~ the school of Biblical Rationality. ("We believe BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT (end of story).)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Woody:

I guess that's my point, I asked the question where does a Calvinist's assurance come from and the answers were from the new birth experience and that because someone was regenerated and they now had a desire to obey God.&nbsp; That sounds introspective and subjective.

The rub is that on one hand a Calvinist says that the Lord has done everything to secure their salvation, but in order for someone to "know" if their salvation has been secured they are required to have faith in the validity and genuiness of their subjective experience rather than in the totality of the person and work of Christ.

I agree with your assessment of most non-Calvinists.&nbsp; But as stated above I have the same issue with telling someone that their assurance comes from their introspective examination of their own subjective experience.

I understand that how we know something may be subjective, but our faith should be well placed soley and completely in the person and work of Christ and not in the genuineness of our subjective experience.