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A question for Baptists / Anabaptist

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daverain

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I want to know of:


Specific Baptist / Anabaptist Doctrines:


My question involves marriage:



Q.)

Is it POSSIBLE for GOD to marry

a-man-and-a-woman

for

'their lives',


WITHOUT

a ceremony

or

a license




(This question is NOT to endorse sin IN ANY WAY.)

(I'm ONLY asking: Is it possible, according to Specific Baptist / Anabaptist Doctrine.)


Thank you,



Peace in Christ.



-daverain




.
 
Hi Dave I know you have asked this in several congregational forums and the answer is the same for Baptists/AnaBaptists that you have heard. The Baptist believes/teaches a legal ceremony is necessary because of obeying the laws of the land.

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves
 
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daveleau

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There are some Baptists that believe that the act of sex is the joining of two in one flesh - ie marriage. I prefer stance that holds that a ceremony is necessary, which is more common. I have not spent a lot of time on this subject, so I tend to be a bit more open minded as I discover biblical guidance on this.
 
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daverain

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RED that's ME said:
Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves


What about COMMON LAW MARRIAGE?:

In my Country,

This is defined as:

The Joining of a man and woman together.

(Although that's quickly being eroded.)


This can happen instantly (by law even)


Indeed, have you ever heard of someone monogomous being arrested for NOT having a marriage license.


No one is COMMANDED by law to get a marriage license,

AND...

The law recognizes "Common law MARRIAGE."


If this is ALL true (and it sure seems to be)

To me...

You've thus answereed YES to my question.

(Do YOU see it that way?)

(That a man and a woman COULD POSSIBLY be 'married' like Adam and Eve were?)




Peace in Christ.



.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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RED that's ME said:
Hi Dave I know you have asked this in several congregational forums and the answer is the same for Baptists/AnaBaptists that you have heard. The Baptist believes/teaches a legal ceremony is necessary because of obeying the laws of the land.

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves

Red, you never cease to amaze me. Your a very insightful young woman and its encouraging. In anycase Daveleau and Red seem to offer the most logical explanations you can get. Marriage is a covenantal relationship between you, your partner and God. While in a sense, I guess you can do that without gov't intervention as Red pointed out we live in a land constrained by social law which God instructs us to abide by.

I dont really understand common law marriage so my advice probably isnt the best. We live in the culture of our countries and seek to obey the will of God. If your country has regulations concerning marriage my advice to you is to get it done according to the strictest sense of your law; instead of relying on just common law marriage as it seems there still is a distinction in your land. If you marry legally and formally then you set yourself apart from those in your country who dont care enough to do that. It could be a form of witness demonstrating the sanctity of marriage to your neighbors who don't know Christ.

Hope that helps.

Bro. Mark
 
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daverain

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Here are some things, I pulled off the 'net:

Canada's Definition:
------------------
COMMON-LAW MARRIAGE A marriage in which no formal ceremony took place and no license exists


(2) the common law definition of marriage [is reformulated] as "the voluntary union for life of two persons to the exclusion of all others".

(Type the above "sentence" in Google, and you'll see I'm right.)


Someone who thinks like me:
---------------------------
Marriage licenses – documents conferring the state’s blessing on a marital union – have no biblical basis. There is no scripture mandating such authorization for marriage. In Genesis 2:24, when God ordains marriage, He says that “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” Neither Genesis 2:25 – nor any other Scripture – states that this union can only be official with a piece of paper from the local magistrate.

During the late 1960s, it was common for couples who shacked up out of wedlock to say that “marriage is just a piece of paper.” This is what we – including about 99 percent of Christians – have reduced marriage to in the modern age. Today, Christians and conservatives insist on the need for the government to issue a document before a marriage to be genuine. They, too, have "redefined" marriage.

Matt Trewhella pastors the Mercy Seat Christian Church in Milwaukee. For years, he has been marrying couples without licenses. He has some fascinating things to say about why Christians should not obtain a marriage license.

Pastor Trewhella quotes the Black’s Law Dictionary’s definition of a license as "the permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal." Why do we need permission from the state to participate in something ordained by God?

Also, when you obtain a license to marry, you give the state unbiblical authority over your marriage and over your children, as well as placing yourself under all sorts of immoral laws. You may read Pastor Trewhella’s entire message here. (on Google)

Pastor Trewhella goes on to give a brief outline of the history of marriage licenses in America. Marriage licenses were not issued in America until the mid-1800s. In 1923, the federal government passed the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act. It was not until 1929 that every state had marriage license laws. Is it merely a coincidence that the demise of the traditional family in America only took place after we gave the government the authority to regulate marriage? I don’t think so.

Big government groupies – this includes Republicans, Democrats and most pastors – will always seek big government solutions. The proposed marriage amendment is just such a thing. It may make its proponents feel good, but it will solve nothing. It will merely intensify a trend – government regulation of marriage – that has been going on for decades.

Benton County, Oregon, the home of Oregon State University, is a pretty liberal place. On March 24, Benton County commissioners did the right thing, albeit for the wrong reasons: they stopped issuing marriage licenses. According to one commissioner, the ostensible purpose of this action was to “uphold Oregon's Constitution's anti-discrimination provisions.”

Tim Nashif, of the Defense of Marriage Coalition stated the following with regard to the Benton County decision: "We are happy Benton County is not going to violate the law by issuing illegal marriage licenses, but we are perplexed as to why they would not issue legal licenses."

Here we have a classic example of the contemporary confusion over what defines marriage. Since the Bible defines marriage, a license (i.e. permission) from the secular authorities is not necessary.
What then shall we do?

If two men or two women want to shack up and call it marriage, I cannot forcibly stop them. Utopia is not an option. However, calling it marriage does not make it marriage. Calling a book a telephone does not make it a telephone. Calling a dog a cat does not make it a cat.

In a free society, which America has not been for many decades, no one would be compelled to recognize such a union as a marriage. No employer would be required to pay benefits to your same-sex significant other. No insurer would be required to write life insurance if your same-sex partner was a beneficiary. No landlord would be required to rent to two people of the same gender if he thought they were living immorally.
A few years ago, a well-known evangelical Christian broadcaster commented that if gay marriage were to become legal, schools would be required to teach your children that there was nothing wrong with it. In a free society, you would not be required to send your child to such a school, or even to pay for it through taxes.

Both sides in the debate over the proposed marriage amendment, as portrayed by the media, are wrong. Those who advocate gay marriage are wrong for openly promoting a perverted and perilous lifestyle.

Those who propose a constitutional ban on gay marriage are also wrong. They only intensify the problem by putting the kingdom of man before the Kingdom of God. From the Garden of Eden until about 150 years ago, marriage was a covenant made before God. The state had nothing to do with it. It is only when the state got its tentacles all over the sacred institution of marriage that it -- as well as the traditional family in general -- started to come apart. Surprise!

It all reminds me of a quote attributed to Beatle drummer Ringo Starr: “Everything the government touches turns to ****.”



Please reply, if you agree with this.







Peace in Christ.






.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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daverain said:
Please reply, if you agree with this.

For the most part I don't, even though the Ringo Starr quote bears a striking resemblance to truth. The only time we are to disregard civil law is when it contradicts scripture and I just cannot see it in this instance.

Neither Genesis 2:25 – nor any other Scripture – states that this union can only be official with a piece of paper from the local magistrate.

True, neither does it state that it's not. It's ambiguous in the context your using it. In the OT are not arrangments made before hand by the parents of those who are to be wed? That's extremely cultural and I must say, biblical. This is how man left his family to cleave to his wife, if you want to be strict about it, quit dating or courting, thats not the biblical norm. In the same way we live in a culture that says part of leaving ones family is to act within the law of the land. I am curious to see what the "certificate of divorce" meant in the bible. "Give to God what is God's and Give to Caeser what is Caeser's."

With regard to the Gov't to be the blame for the destruction of a biblical family. We cannot ascribe blame on anyone but ourselves for this failure. It is the individual's responsibility to maintain family unity. It is personal sin, and laziness, for its failure. No marriage is easy, or always fun it is our lack of commitment and love for you and your spouse that causes it to fail. Shall I blame the gov't if I get addicted to pornography because it is legal & considered free speech? No, thats my own fault, my own sin, and I have to deal with that. It's the same thing, the gov't regulates that yet they didnt cause me to fail.
 
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daverain

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RED that's ME said:
Hi Dave I know you have asked this in several congregational forums and the answer is the same for Baptists/AnaBaptists that you have heard.

Well,

In the congregation: Messianic Judaism: I've been given the reply "Go ask Adam and Eve." I would say this is different than YOUR (singular) opinion.


I would also say it's clear that not ALL here (in this congregational forum), agree with you (as indicated in a previous post).




Peace in Christ.



.
 
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daverain

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The Lord's Envoy said:
In the OT are not arrangments made before hand by the parents of those who are to be wed? That's extremely cultural and I must say, biblical.


For now...


Are we NOT under The New Covenant (purchased with the blood of Christ)?

What of:
Galations 3:10:
---------------

"Anyone under the LAW (=old covenant) is under a CURSE."

(how does this denomination view: THIS VERSE?)

??

(I'm trying to get VARIOUS denominational viewpoints here.)





Peace in Christ.



.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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daverain said:
Are we NOT under The New Covenant (purchased with the blood of Christ)?

What of:
Galations 3:10:
---------------

"Anyone under the LAW (=old covenant) is under a CURSE."

(how does this denomination view: THIS VERSE?)

Your the one who quoted OT Canon (Gen. 2:26ff) concerning marriage. The quote's I have given you are new testament (giving to ceaser, and obeying the authorities).
 
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daverain

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Well,

(To help in getting various answers to my question)

I mentioned Adam & Eve because Jesus did:

"...It was NOT so, at the beginning."

"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and the two will become one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let NO MAN seperate."



Second point...


As soon as you can find a law, that...

COMMANDS

someone to get a marriage-license

(you know, or else they...
GO TO JAIL.)

(=A law that actually

REQUIRES

one to get a marriage-license.)

(not just TALK.)

TALK:
------
A pastor who's learned from a pastor, who's learned from a pastor, who's learned from a pastor, etc.
----------------------------

then, you MIGHT prove your point.



So...

ARE THERE OTHER POINTS OF VIEW HERE (in

Baptist /
Anabaptist ?

(This has been indicated in a previous post.)

If so, I'd like to hear them.



Peace in Christ.





.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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daverain said:
Second point...


As soon as you can find a law, that...

COMMANDS

someone to get a marriage-license

(you know, or else they...
GO TO JAIL.)

(=A law that actually

REQUIRES

one to get a marriage-license.)

(not just TALK.)

TALK:
------
A pastor who's learned from a pastor, who's learned from a pastor, who's learned from a pastor, etc.
----------------------------

then, you MIGHT prove your point.

What are you talking about? :scratch:
 
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