A question for atheists

[Holoman]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If your question is directed at those who believe there is no god, then you aren't going to get many responses. There is a difference between being convinced that there is no god and being unconvinced that there is a god. Most atheists are the latter; they are unconvinced.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

You need to define the "God of Christianity" more precisely. I think most atheists would say that, if such evidence were presented, they would no longer be atheists. Whether that God deserves to be worshipped is a different matter entirely.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

Sure thing. I'd be happy to entertain your question.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

I would have to determine an ethical way to relate to such a God.

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

That depends on just what "no doubt to his existence and Christianity's truth" really means on a philosophical level. Does it mean that I automatically agree with Christian doctrine about everything? If so, there's no point in you asking your question. I would act like any other Christian.

If there are still judgments left to make, then I would first check if this God is the Evil war-god found in the Old Testament. If so, this would create many difficulties. I would be forced to be Prometheus to Yahweh's Zeus.

If God is misrepresented by the Old Testament, then I'd have to evaluate his character and formulate a proper way to relate to such a being. Worship is likely out of the question. My idea of a good God would be more like a Socrates who is a friend and a mentor, and who respects the integrity of my mind and of my individuality. It would be silly to worship Socrates, and he -- to his credit -- would have none of that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[DogmaHunter]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

Others probably already pointed it out, but.... an atheist is not someone that (necessarily) believe that there are no gods.
Rather, an atheist is someone that doesn't accept/believe the specific claims from theists.

All theists could be wrong and some other god might still exist.

Not believing the claim "x exists!" is not the same as believing the claim "x does not exist!"

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

Believe the christian god exists, obviously.
Let me turn that around: if tomorrow it is revealed to you in an undeniable way that christianity is false, what will you do?

And then also: if tomorrow it is revealed to you in an undeniable way that Islam is correct, what will you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible,

That is correct (for me, anyway)

so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God

I'ld accept the god exists and my moral objections would remain unchanged.

, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

I could not do so sincerely. I might "submit" in the hope of not having to spend eternity in a place of torture, but I figure that, being all-knowing and stuff, I wouldn't be able to fool him.

But I can't bring myself to simply ignore my own moral objections.
If I see something I find incredibly unjust, there is not much I can do about that. I can't "convince myself" that it isn't unjust.

I don't control my emotions. I might try to suppress them, but I can't make them go away. If you are convinced of something and aren't offered any additional information to make you change your mind...how could you change your mind?

Imagine the horrible crimes of the Nazi's. I'm sure you agree those were reprehensible and unspeakable evils.

Could you convince yourself in any way that "it wasn't all bad" and in fact, "they were a GOOD thing"?

Off course you couldn't. Because you don't control that aspect of yourself.
One would have to be a psychopath or something to be able to change your mind on such things as if they were trivial/arbitrary decisions.

 

[asherahSamaria]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

Like many other atheists I do not say "there is no god", however, I'm as confident as you can be that the Biblical god as described by Christians does not exist - just too many inconsistencies.

The analogy to a mafia boss is a good one.

"That's a nice soul you got there."
"Be a shame if anything happened to it."
"Worship me and I'll see you right - reject the idea of me and I'll torture you forever."

The above does not describe the embodiment of "love" which is what most Christians advocate. Now if you were to say that the Biblical god, as described in the Bible was real - with all those traits of capriciousness, envy, jealously, hatred, etc, then I could not say "that god does not exist" because that's what's described there. Of course as many of the stories described there seem to be "borrowed" from other older stories from other beliefs it's really not reasonable to just fixate on a Biblical god in any case.

The deistic position is a little different, but as that doesn't normally involve a personal god the difference between a deity that created the universe and took no further interest, and one which doesn't exist at all is, to all practical purposes, moot.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

Well, if it's undeniable and left me with no doubt, I would have to believe that Jesus is god and Christianity is true.

But I think even Christians agree that religion is a process. I'd have some questions.

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

Obviously, there are many Christian denominations, many with contradictory positions. I'd angle towards a UU-style church/belief, unless my revelation made it clear that shrimp-eaters were going to burn in hell alongside every Australian aborigine who lived before Christianity arrived to the continent (and so on). In that case, it would be hard to sincerely worship such a being. So I think I would retain my moral objections and ignore god.

Since the Great Flood never happened, I don't need to hang that crime on Jesus. But if part of my undeniable revelation was that it had happened, and furthermore 'evolution is a lie', well... at that point I'd have to check myself into the loony bin.

 

[Holoman]

Thanks for the replies. To clarify, I'm interested in responses from both people who believe there is no God and those who aren't convinced there's a God.

I also, by Christianity, mean whatever you understand that currently to be or say Roman Catholic if you want a specific denomination, and that the revelation included the fact that the Bible is true (though not all literally) but the things attributed to God in it, along with the laws of Leviticus etc where all verified as divine commands.

I suppose I am interested in whether people have such a moral objection to the God of the Bible that they would reject him even if they knew for certain he existed, or if they would do what they had to do to save their own skin.

It is a similar thing to what someone asked of me, if tomorrow it was revealed Christianity was a lie and Islam was true, without a shadow of a doubt, I would have some issues with some of what he has commanded, I don't know if I could ever love him truly, but I would bend the knee because i certainly wouldnt want to be on his bad side.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I suppose I am interested in whether people have such a moral objection to the God of the Bible that they would reject him even if they knew for certain he existed, or if they would do what they had to do to save their own skin.

If it came down to that -- if God were monstrously evil -- I would stick with my integrity and reject God. Just like I said, I would be Prometheus to his Zeus.

It might be that I would hold out some hope that this was all "just a test", and that God wasn't evil after all and was just checking my moral fiber. But, still, I'd rather stand up to God than to have such a large breach in my integrity for an eternity, for what does it profit a man to gain all of heaven and God's good graces, and yet lose one's soul (one's integrity) forever?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Thanks for the replies. To clarify, I'm interested in responses from both people who believe there is no God and those who aren't convinced there's a God.

I also, by Christianity, mean whatever you understand that currently to be or say Roman Catholic if you want a specific denomination, and that the revelation included the fact that the Bible is true (though not all literally) but the things attributed to God in it, along with the laws of Leviticus etc where all verified as divine commands.

I suppose I am interested in whether people have such a moral objection to the God of the Bible that they would reject him even if they knew for certain he existed, or if they would do what they had to do to save their own skin.

It is a similar thing to what someone asked of me, if tomorrow it was revealed Christianity was a lie and Islam was true, without a shadow of a doubt, I would have some issues with some of what he has commanded, I don't know if I could ever love him truly, but I would bend the knee because i certainly wouldnt want to be on his bad side.

If we are talking about the God of the Bible, and we assume that all parts of the Bible are literally true, then I can only conceive of worshipping such a being out of fear.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If it came down to that -- if God were monstrously evil -- I would stick with my integrity and reject God. Just like I said, I would be Prometheus to his Zeus.

It might be that I would hold out some hope that this was all "just a test", and that God wasn't evil after all and was just checking my moral fiber. But, still, I'd rather stand up to God than to have such a large breach in my integrity for an eternity, for what does it profit a man to gain all of heaven and God's good graces, and yet lose one's soul (one's integrity) forever?


eudaimonia,

Mark

I speculated about this a while ago:

Considering that the God of the Bible is fond of testing his subjects, one can imagine that this might be a test, perhaps even the final test. Having admitted to sentencing countless poor souls to an eternity of torture, perhaps God would not be satisfied with shameless sycophantic loyalty.

When the Christian says, "That is good and just my Lord!," God responds angrily. "Have you learned nothing from my Son's exemplary compassion? Do you think that you can trade compassion for indifference at Heaven's mighty gates? Why would I want such a heartless soul in my company? You have lived, but you know nothing of evil!"

The rebellious soul does not bow, but reprimands this God for his actions. "You may be a God, but your malevolence is unsurpassable. I'd rather spend an eternity in Hell than worship at the throne of a being so evil." To this God responds kindly. "You know now the difference between good and evil. You have fulfilled Adam's promise, and followed my Son's example, for you were willing to endure the horrors of Hell rather than surrender compassion for all the joys of Heaven. You are worthy of my company."

Perhaps God does not want sycophants, but prizes unwavering compassion and the tenacity to question even the highest of authorities.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

Technically I simply don't believe in God. To say I "believe there is no God" implies a level of knowledge I can never have. A distinction without a difference, I know.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

I would accept that God exist and then I'd have to decide if this is a God a should worship as I don't believe might (God's infinite power) makes right. Is it assumed that revealing "Christianity's truth" would also point me to a specific denomination?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

A lot of the Old Testament actions of God do not seem "good" by today's moral standards. This makes the always good aspect seem dubious to us doubters. But I'll accept that those times were a more ruthless time anyways.

To sum up there are four steps before I'd worship God.
1) Does He exist?
2) Does He care if I worship Him?
3) Does He possess qualities that warrant worship? (I.e. good?)
4) Are his demand reasonable?

That and I'm not interested in living forever. A finite life is fine with me

 

[Dave Ellis]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

To answer your question, if the god of Christianity presented himself to me tomorrow in a way that could be undeniably confirmed (and it could be proven I'm not hallucinating, etc), then I would no longer be an atheist.

I would of course accept that a god really does exist, that's the only rational thing to do under those circumstances.

I would have a lot of questions for that god however, and I don't think that I'd ever worship it.

To explain, If god answers the questions well, and (for example) the atrocities attributed to him in the bible were not really his doing, and for some reason he couldn't prevent them from happening, then I may accept that god as a good and moral being. However, it also goes without saying that a good and moral being would not demand others worship him. So, it's my belief that a good god would not demand worship, and I would see no reason to do so.

On the other hand, if the god that presents itself was as he is portrayed in the bible, and the atrocities attributed to him were in fact real, then I would not worship that being on moral grounds. I would identify that being as an evil god, not worthy of worship (on that note, I don't believe any being is worthy of worship, but much less an evil one).

I would not worship a being simply because it gets me into heaven, as the object of that worship would be by definition immoral, nor would I worship a being to avoid hell as any being that would put me there is also immoral, if not outright evil.

In other words, if a being is willing to throw me in hell because I didn't worship it, then that being is not worthy of worship. I would not compromise my morality to cowtow to an evil being, no matter how powerful it is. And if I wind up in hell, then at least I have the comfort of knowing I have superior morality to that god.

 

[The Cadet]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

Basically, my response would be to bow down, kiss ass, and hope that insincere, terrified worship is good enough to avoid eternal torture. I'd probably find some way of justifying all the atrocities of God to myself - I'm a horribly self-serving jerk. I'd probably feel really lousy about it for a while, but I'm no Stephen Fry. I'm not going to stand up to someone who seems both willing and able to torture me forever and say, "Wow, you're evil, how could you possibly explain this".
He's a better person than me for sure, but I get to not suffer forever!

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Basically, my response would be to bow down, kiss ass, and hope that insincere, terrified worship is good enough to avoid eternal torture. I'd probably find some way of justifying all the atrocities of God to myself - I'm a horribly self-serving jerk. I'd probably feel really lousy about it for a while, but I'm no Stephen Fry. I'm not going to stand up to someone who seems both willing and able to torture me forever and say, "Wow, you're evil, how could you possibly explain this".
He's a better person than me for sure, but I get to not suffer forever!

But at that point it is too late as your worship would not be sincere. Presumably such a being would be able to deduce genuine worship from insincere worship.

 

[Dave Ellis]

But at that point it is too late as your worship would not be sincere. Presumably such a being would be able to deduce genuine worship from insincere worship.

I think he was being sarcastic....

 

[The Cadet]

But at that point it is too late as your worship would not be sincere. Presumably such a being would be able to deduce genuine worship from insincere worship.

Yeah, no, I generally have a pretty good sense of when things are right and wrong, so genuine worship of a being that considers me worthy of eternal damnation for not worshipping him is pretty much out of the question. So I'm pretty much boned no matter what.

 

[Paradoxum]

Well what I'd do depends on what I'd know. You only said I knew there was a Christian type God, not whether that God was as cruel as the Old Testament god, or what would happen to me if I didn't follow God.

If the God was good, I'd appreciate him and be thankful. I'm not sure any being is worthy of worship. But maybe I would worship.

If the God is bad, but there's no bad consequence for not following him, then I wouldn't follow him.

If the God is bad, but I would be tortured in hell, I'd probably try to brainwash myself into the religion, since eternal torture is worse than following the bad God.

(It would also be worth considering whether it's possible to kill or dethrone the bad God).

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

 

[plummyy]

I have a question for those that believe there is no god, just something I have been wondering about rather than a debate.

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

The reason I ask is many seem to have moral objections to the actions of the God of the Bible, so I'm interested if they would retain those objections and reject God, or if they would become Christian and worship him in order to get to heaven (or some other reason).

For starters, I would rather prefer that god show themselves not only to me, but to at least three others because if any god revealed themselves to me (and only me) I would have to question whether or not I was hallucinating. Aside from that, I'm a little fuzzy of what you're asking... If a god were revealed to me, I knew for a fact that I was not hallucinating, and that it was not an isolated event, I would accept it as true and move on. I wouldn't fall into prayer and worship, because all-powerful-being or not, I don't yearn for a totalitarian. I wouldn't wish for anyone to rule over me, nor would I accept their authority and begin to fear them or respect them in any way because of it. I may be atheist because of a lack of evidence for god, but I'm anti-theist as well---because there are two ways in which you can not believe something.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

If tomorrow, the God of Christianity revealed himself to you in a way that was undeniable and left you with no doubt as to his existence and Christianity's truth, what would you do?

Nothing.

 

[Chany]

Depends. Christians have a very big selection of God concepts under their roof. Some of them are pretty much monsters who only demand respect because of their powers, while others are really just the Platonic Good with an intellect and a will.

Assuming the latter option, I do not see how I could worship a deity again: seek it out as a source of the good in the Platonic sense, yes. Ask for assistence yes. Thank him for his help, yes. But worship it? No. Our relationship would be different than the one Christianity usually promotes: object and God.