A Question for Atheists

[awitch]

Well let's see, according to what is considered scientific fact, an atom appeared out of nowhere, split and burst creating a universe that by a series of billions of coincidences that just happened to take place under the perfect conditions,

Now, I think, you're talking about the Big Bang, which is not related to evolution. There is plenty of information available online & in libraries regarding these topics.

"It's not probable" does not refute science nor does it support your case for god. Remember, life evolves to fit the environment, the environment was not designed specifically for life. You still need to present empirical, credible evidence for your god.

I believe in gods, but I am in complete agreement with Big Bang, abiogenesis, and atheistic evolution. I don't even acknowledge intelligent design.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Sometimes truth is harsh. For anyone believes in certain Divinity receives spiritual enlightenment and thus possible to be saved. But those who deny even the least of this shut themselves off from any influx, thus they are in total darkness spiritually, yet they seem logical in their own eyes and their judgement.

It is harsh because they are so close to God here on this site, yet fervently deny Him, thus they deserve the truth.

Well. I don't think you are spiritually enlightened or speak some sort of harsh truth, or whatever exactly.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

If we can do that with only accessing 10-20% of our brains, imagine what we could do if we accessed 100% of our brains)

Are you thinking about this stuff:
snopes.com: Ten Percent of our Brains


(And this is the only thing that I am kind enough to address from your post. The rest really is your problem.)

 

[Tiberium]

Well let's see, according to what is considered scientific fact, an atom appeared out of nowhere,

Since you couldn't get that right I stopped reading there.

 

[Beksinski]

I've been treated quite kindly by many christians. For which I'm grateful. But I'm honestly baffled why someone who sincerely believes in this contract of eternal reward/punishment would compound the apparent predicament of the unbeliever with such condescension and unkindness. I mean, atheists are ALREADY doomed to suffer agonizing torment for eternity. Where is the logic in belittling and baiting them on top of that? I've made some dubious choices in my life, admittedly, but I cannot fathom adding insult to injury in this fashion.

 

[Tuddrussell]

You know as well as I do that no matter how much evidence we show you such as the fact that energy cannot die,

Or be created, which is an equally important note.

there are believed to be multiple dimensions that may exist outside our physical laws,

Demensions are by definition part of our universe, thus are subject to our laws.

people such as "John of God" have been proven to do spiritual healings that science cannot explain,

Have they? Hypnosis, the placebo effect, peer pressure, getting better naturally, and spontaneous remission are all explanations for these "healings."

Also people are never healed of things that could actually not be healed by means other than faith healing. Such as regrowing limbs, or curing terminal deseases.

thousands of people at a time have reported seeing visions of Mary and other apparitions with hundreds of healings taking place during the sightings,

Mass hysteria, group hypnosis, peer pressure, illusion, trickery, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

people have come back from being clinically dead and have described what went on in the emergency room,

Did they explain anything that they couldn't have just guessed? They could be psychic, or just faking it.

 

[Erfan777]

Are you thinking about this stuff:
snopes.com: Ten Percent of our Brains


(And this is the only thing that I am kind enough to address from your post. The rest really is your problem.)

Sad that many people believe we only use 10% of our brain, but then again many don't know the human brain very well. Different parts of the brain is used for different function, such as the forebrain is used for producing emotions and the cerebellum is used for body control, etc. So we infact use like 100% of our brain.

 

[Eudaimonist]

So we infact use like 100% of our brain.

True. That whole 10% thing was a kind of urban legend.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Erfan777]

You know as well as I do that no matter how much evidence we show you such as the fact that energy cannot die, there are believed to be multiple dimensions that may exist outside our physical laws, people such as "John of God" have been proven to do spiritual healings that science cannot explain, thousands of people at a time have reported seeing visions of Mary and other apparitions with hundreds of healings taking place during the sightings, people have come back from being clinically dead and have described what went on in the emergency room, and the list goes on and on but most atheists just shrug them aside not even bothering to come up with a logical explanation for them and then continue to push Christians to give them more evidence. You can see the evidence all around you. You claim that Christians can't come up with explanations for your "theories" but the truth is, Christians can and do come up with explanations for absolutely everything you have thrown at us, whether you find them to be acceptable is your problem but I challenge you to find explanations for the list of miracles I have listed above. Until you can explain them with science, you have no credibility claiming that the supernatural doesn't exist.

1) What do you mean by evidence when you say "energy cannot die"? Ofcourse energy cannot be destroyed, its the law of conservation of energy.

2) Multiple dimensions theory fall in the subject of quantum mechanics. I am not an expert in this field but multiple dimension described according to string theory is somewhat convincing. Yet, they still need to make testable experimental predictions otherwise I am afraid it may not be part of science.

3) Have you heard of the explanation of faith healing according to science? Its like this, faith healing may sometimes act like a placebo pill. Belief can at some circumstances create reality. You can see faith healing in other faiths as well, not just in Christianity.

4) By Mass vision of Mary, I think you are refering to the "miracle of the sun". It could be true, because the event has been witnessed by not just one but thousands of people. But it might be just psychological because they were staring directly at the sun for a long time I think. Personally, I think if the mass number of people have witnessed the same event than it could infact be true. But there has been mass miracle in other faith as well, though it might be not as large as the "miracle of the sun", such as the appearing of Koran verse on a baby's skin in Russia and the claimed miracle at Islamberg in USA.

5) When you talk about near-death experience (nde), I want you to think, why does the experience differ among people? Why does the experience differ across culture? Surely, all should experience the same situation right?
Science describe nde like this: when you feel complete peace during nde, it could the result of massive release of endorphins in a dying brain, the buzzing, ringing or other sounds could be due to lack of oxygen in the brain. Many nde experience could be due to electrical stimulation of the brain's temporal lobes, lack of oxygen to the brain in rapid acceleration during fighter pilot training, psychedelic like LSD and mescaline and anaesthetic drugs. Source: "Psychology From Inquiry to Understanding" by Lilienfeld, Lynn, Namy, Woolf, Cramer, Schmaltz.

 

[norswede]

Tuddrussel- Exactly, Energy can not be Created or destroyed, which throws out the argument of "How can God have always existed?"
And yes, many of those who have come back from the dead have described events that would have been impossible to guess. And what exactly do you consider being psychic to be?

Erfan 777- You forget that Christians believe in both the powers of Good and Evil so where the spiritual experiences of other religions originate from is irrelevant. I am not Catholic either, yet I do believe they saw an apparition and experienced mass healings. The point that I'm trying to make is that the supernatural does exist and bad science such as mass hysteria and group hypnosis doesn't cut it, sorry. It's just a way to brush events that science can't explain to the side.

 

[awitch]

The point that I'm trying to make is that the supernatural does exist and bad science such as mass hysteria and group hypnosis doesn't cut it, sorry. It's just a way to brush events that science can't explain to the side.

There is also illusion, hoax, and Pareidolia.
Is there a particular instance you'd like to find a scientific explanation for?

I think the image of the Virgin Mary found in bird droppings really makes the "phenomena" look silly.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

There is also illusion, hoax, and Pareidolia.

You forget fraud, scams, charlatans.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Tuddrussel- Exactly, Energy can not be Created or destroyed, which throws out the argument of "How can God have always existed?"

It also throws out the idea of "What created the universe?" - nothing created the universe, since it's always existence, since energy cannot be created or destroyed. If God can create energy, then so can some mundane, unintelligent process.

And yes, many of those who have come back from the dead have described events that would have been impossible to guess.

Do you have any corroborating evidence for this?

Erfan 777- You forget that Christians believe in both the powers of Good and Evil so where the spiritual experiences of other religions originate from is irrelevant. I am not Catholic either, yet I do believe they saw an apparition and experienced mass healings. The point that I'm trying to make is that the supernatural does exist and bad science such as mass hysteria and group hypnosis doesn't cut it, sorry. It's just a way to brush events that science can't explain to the side.

You can imagine a Big Bad Conspiracy all you want, that doesn't justify your claims. If you assert that there was a mass healing, then prove it. If you assert that someone was possessed by demons and floated in the air, then prove it. If you assert that pigs flew out of my bum, then prove it.

The onus is on you to prove your claims, not on us to disprove them. Until then, we are free to dismiss them as just another series of superstitious ramblings.

 

[norswede]

It also throws out the idea of "What created the universe?" - nothing created the universe, since it's always existence, since energy cannot be created or destroyed. If God can create energy, then so can some mundane, unintelligent process.


Do you have any corroborating evidence for this?


You can imagine a Big Bad Conspiracy all you want, that doesn't justify your claims. If you assert that there was a mass healing, then prove it. If you assert that someone was possessed by demons and floated in the air, then prove it. If you assert that pigs flew out of my bum, then prove it.

The onus is on you to prove your claims, not on us to disprove them. Until then, we are free to dismiss them as just another series of superstitious ramblings.

I could show you evidence for all of these events and will if I think that you will take it seriously, but you won't. Unless one of your Holy men like Hawking or Dawkins says it happened which they won't because that would discredit them, you won't believe it no matter how many witnesses there were. In fact I don't think you would even believe it if it happened to you personally. You would probably just check yourself into a mental institution assuming you had gone crazy and if other people experienced the same thing you did, you would just assume that Chris Angel was hiding in the bushes hypnotizing you. I mean give me a break, are you really interested in evidence or does it just amuse you to see Christians scrambling around for evidence to events nothing can convince you happened?

But to humor you one last time, here are links to the events mentioned. If you are willing to have an intelligent discussion on the events I will be happy to continue the discussion but I'm just sick of wasting my time finding evidence that no one is even willing to give me an intelligent response to.

The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven - Kevin Malarkey - 1/6 - YouTube

Messages From Heaven - A Biblical Examination of the Apparitions of the Virgin Mary 1 / 6 - YouTube

CNN Investigates 'John of God' - Faith Healer Popularized by Oprah - YouTube

John of God documentary - Part 1 - YouTube

Once you have watched each of these videos, respond back with an intelligent explanation and I will continue the debate.

 

[Tuddrussell]

If you had real evidence, and testimonies do not in any way count as evidence, then you'd have shared it already.

If you have evidence and are hiding it for some reason, then it is you who are a part of a conspiracy! Which makes sense now that I think about it. Very sneaky.

Near death experiences are easily explained as nothing more than vivid dreams as a result fo chemicals flooding the dying brain, and I've alredy provided a reasonable explanation for the Mary Incident.

This isn't proof, it is conjecture. Learn the difference. This is not a court of law, eye witness accounts prove nothing.

Either way the above don't prove anything, really. Even if it was proved that Joao De Deus can heal people, that just proves that he's a healer. It is in no way proof of god, it is proof of itself and nothing else.

He could be a mutant, a sorcerer, a con man, or any number of things.

 

[norswede]

If you had real evidence, and testimonies do not in any way count as evidence, then you'd have shared it already.

If you have evidence and are hiding it for some reason, then it is you who are a part of a conspiracy! Which makes sense now that I think about it. Very sneaky.

Near death experiences are easily explained as nothing more than vivid dreams as a result fo chemicals flooding the dying brain, and I've alredy provided a reasonable explanation for the Mary Incident.

This isn't proof, it is conjecture. Learn the difference. This is not a court of law, eye witness accounts prove nothing.

Either way the above don't prove anything, really. Even if it was proved that Joao De Deus can heal people, that just proves that he's a healer. It is in no way proof of god, it is proof of itself and nothing else.

He could be a mutant, a sorcerer, a con man, or any number of things.

Actually all of these events are loaded with evidence. In the situation of the boy who came back from heaven, he was not only brain dead but his spine was actually severed from his brain and there are actual doctor's testimonies to this fact. Secondly, in the case of John of God, he has been researched by many skeptics and no one has been able to come up with a scientific explanation. You have just proven that your heart is closed and there is no way to convince you therefore it is useless talking to you. You obviously didn't even watch the videos or else you wouldn't have responded so ignorantly. You responded as every other closed minded atheist does. I have heard it a thousand times before "Even if it does prove to be true, it still doesn't prove anything" I mean come on. Give me a break

 

[awitch]

Actually all of these events are loaded with evidence. In the situation of the boy who came back from heaven, he was not only brain dead but his spine was actually severed from his brain and there are actual doctor's testimonies to this fact.

We would need to see those medical reports to confirm that. Not likely to happen if HIPPA laws apply.

Secondly, in the case of John of God, he has been researched by many skeptics and no one has been able to come up with a scientific explanation.

Which skeptics and where are their reports?

You have just proven that your heart is closed and there is no way to convince you therefore it is useless talking to you.

I'm not closed, I'm asking you to provide empirical evidence. So far what you've provided is so general, it sounds like any other urban legend. Submit specifics and I would happy to review. Youtube videos are not evidence.

 

[Tuddrussell]

Actually all of these events are loaded with evidence.

I didn't see any! All I saw was phenomena, nothing that is proof of god or the supernatural. Just because something doesn't have a mundane explanation doesn't mean that the solution is supernatural. It just means that it is unexplained.

Unless you can prove that the explanation of these accounts is necessarily god, or the supernatural, then it is just a curiously unexplained situation.

In the situation of the boy who came back from heaven, he was not only brain dead but his spine was actually severed from his brain and there are actual doctor's testimonies to this fact.

People come back from the dead all the time, it's interesting but not anything other than that. Their brain cannot work when they are dead, memories of that time must by definition be created things since the brain was not on record at the time.

In other words there was a gap in their memory, so they unconciously filled it in with what they could reasonably expect to have occured during that time. It's a common occurance, and is a documented and somewhat understood neurological event.

Secondly, in the case of John of God, he has been researched by many skeptics and no one has been able to come up with a scientific explanation.

Again just because it is not yet explained, does not mean it cannot be explained and certainly isn't proof of the supernatural.

You have just proven that your heart is closed and there is no way to convince you therefore it is useless talking to you. You obviously didn't even watch the videos or else you wouldn't have responded so ignorantly. You responded as every other closed minded atheist does.

You can convince me, I just need evidence. You said you have some, but you have yet to show us any. I think you were either lying, or you're just taunting us with something interesting but not actually throwing us the bone.

In either case you are being cruel and selfish.

I have heard it a thousand times before "Even if it does prove to be true, it still doesn't prove anything" I mean come on. Give me a break

Evidence speaks for itself, if you had non-circumstantial evidence that god or the supernatural exist I've certainly not seen it yet. Either you have it or you don't, I wont cotton to your ridiculous games any more.

Put up or shut up!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I could show you evidence for all of these events and will if I think that you will take it seriously, but you won't.

Why not? Have I given you any reason to prejudge me? I've addressed you politely, yet you treat me with suspicion and hostility.

Unless one of your Holy men like Hawking or Dawkins says it happened which they won't because that would discredit them, you won't believe it no matter how many witnesses there were. In fact I don't think you would even believe it if it happened to you personally. You would probably just check yourself into a mental institution assuming you had gone crazy and if other people experienced the same thing you did, you would just assume that Chris Angel was hiding in the bushes hypnotizing you.

Err... OK? You got all that from one post?

I mean give me a break, are you really interested in evidence or does it just amuse you to see Christians scrambling around for evidence to events nothing can convince you happened?

I am genuinely asking you for evidence for your claims, so that we can have a calm, civil discussion about God, the supernatural, etc. The basis of a civilised dialogue is mutual respect. I've given you that courtesy, so I'm surprised you would react so coldly to an honest question.

But to humor you one last time, here are links to the events mentioned. If you are willing to have an intelligent discussion on the events I will be happy to continue the discussion but I'm just sick of wasting my time finding evidence that no one is even willing to give me an intelligent response to.

The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven - Kevin Malarkey - 1/6 - YouTube

Messages From Heaven - A Biblical Examination of the Apparitions of the Virgin Mary 1 / 6 - YouTube

CNN Investigates 'John of God' - Faith Healer Popularized by Oprah - YouTube

John of God documentary - Part 1 - YouTube

Once you have watched each of these videos, respond back with an intelligent explanation and I will continue the debate.

I will do my best. For ease of reference, I'll bullet point them.

• The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven is a book written by a man named Kevin Malarkey, who is the father of a small child who went into a coma after a car accident. When the boy awoke, he described how he had visited Heaven, talked to God, etc. This is all very well and good, and is hardly unusual when someone has suffered severe brain trauma. However, besides not being able to corroborate any of the alleged supernatural events, there is also the sad fact that the 'trip' reads like what a child would simply conjure up in his mind - modern depictions of of Satan, for instance - coupled with details and descriptions that a child simply wouldn't remember - signs of his dad's interference in writing the book.
  Overall, I see nothing that can be substantiated here - just a little boy's dream while he was in a coma, and his dad's ploy to spin this into money.
• A show about the Virgin Mary, UFOs, angels, conspiracy theories, and other fun - but ultimately vacuous - items of pop culture. I don't really see how a TV show constitutes evidence of anything. I've seen shows that claim Hitler and Elvis are still alive, that the Loch Ness monster not only exists but has a brood of babies, etc. Hardly compelling evidence.
• "John of God" (João de Deus, born João Teixeira de Fari), is certainly a charismatic character, but nothing in that video nor any other record I could find (articles, his interview on with Oprah Winfrey, etc) showed anything substantiated - the clip of him performing 'psychic surgery' is easily explainable by sleight-of-hand and the placebo effect. ABC did a report on João's attempt to cure five people, and in their follow-up, they noted that one has died, three are pretty much at the same place, and only one has improved.
  Again, there's not a lot more to mention, except to point out the dearth of evidence surround this claim - and that's all the video presented: a claim.

So, as much as I would like to have an intelligent discussion, there's not really a lot to go on from these three YouTube videos. The first has all the hallmarks of a small child's coma dream being exploited by his father. The second is a rather cute TV show about all things sci-fi, but is unsurprisingly lacking in any real evidence. The third is a series of claims about a psychic healer - complete with the notorious lack of evidence.

These claims of psychic healing are particularly interesting because, unlike subjective visions, they can be scientifically tested. Numerous studies have yielded no supporting evidence, and both academia and various governments have issued statements disparaging the practice as fraudulent.

 

[norswede]

I didn't see any! All I saw was phenomena, nothing that is proof of god or the supernatural. Just because something doesn't have a mundane explanation doesn't mean that the solution is supernatural. It just means that it is unexplained.

Unless you can prove that the explanation of these accounts is necessarily god, or the supernatural, then it is just a curiously unexplained situation.

People come back from the dead all the time, it's interesting but not anything other than that. Their brain cannot work when they are dead, memories of that time must by definition be created things since the brain was not on record at the time.

In other words there was a gap in their memory, so they unconciously filled it in with what they could reasonably expect to have occured during that time. It's a common occurance, and is a documented and somewhat understood neurological event.

Again just because it is not yet explained, does not mean it cannot be explained and certainly isn't proof of the supernatural.

You can convince me, I just need evidence. You said you have some, but you have yet to show us any. I think you were either lying, or you're just taunting us with something interesting but not actually throwing us the bone.

In either case you are being cruel and selfish.

Evidence speaks for itself, if you had non-circumstantial evidence that god or the supernatural exist I've certainly not seen it yet. Either you have it or you don't, I wont cotton to your ridiculous games any more.

Put up or shut up!

I don't know why I'm even asking this but what would you consider evidence? Scientific reports by atheist scientists that they are wrong and God and the supernatural exists? Good luck with that. And as for these events being unexplained, that is the point. If you can't explain these events, then you have proven my point. It is not my goal to prove the existence of God. Only to prove the possibility of the existence of God. The possibility of the existence of God is already scientific fact. God is energy therefore was never created and cannot be destroyed. God put small amounts of his energy into us which is why we are made up of energy and because we are energy, we cannot be destroyed either. After we die, we will continue to exist in a different form. Our brains are nothing more than receivers no different than televisions, computers and radios. There is invisible energy everywhere that can't be picked up without a receiver. This is how people are able to move things with their minds and read each other's thoughts. We have a small amount of the energy that makes up God and this is what Jesus meant when he said that if we had enough faith we could move mountains. He meant that if we developed our energy to it's full potential, we could move mountains. God, with his much stronger energy, can do far more than move mountains. He can manipulate matter to a much larger level. This is the possibility of the existence of God. God Created our human bodies through the same laws that you call science. Therefore he lives within our natural laws, not outside of them. Just because our puny minds haven't discovered all the mysteries of our universe yet doesn't mean there isn't much more to learn. God exists within science, not outside of it. Jesus said that in the last days knowledge would increase. He meant the knowledge of God and how we were created. Science is just catching up to religion, not disproving it.