A question for all, triggered by another thread

[cenimo]

Since the thread "any of this sound familiar" triggered a few differences of opinion ... ahem ...    I'd really like to pose this question:

The topic dealt with Islam and issues in the US...OK, I realize this is an internatinal forum, and also a Christian forum and by that very nature will attract people opposed to both...

But since we have a faction of Islam that has vowed to kill anyone not Islamic, and that includes most of us here, why would anyone who is an intended target of these people defend them? This equates to Jews defending Nazis...or whatever other insane example anyone can think of...

Since  9-11 we haven't seen the peaceful majority (or so we're told) of the Islamics trying to put a governor on their own radical factions, we've only seen them trying to sell us what a peaceful religion Islam is.

A lot of people see people like me as a "right wing radical" but I just don't want to wind up living in a totalitarian state because a bunch of people were dreamers. And all toomoften - those dreamers - have no answer to the question, "What have you ever done FOR your country?"

But I'd still like to see people give any logical answer as to why they come to the defense of people who want to kill them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Evangelion]

I don't see anybody here "coming to the defence of people who want to kill them."

 

[notto]

" Since 9-11 we haven't seen the peaceful majority (or so we're told) of the Islamics trying to put a governor on their own radical factions, we've only seen them trying to sell us what a peaceful religion Islam is. "

The majority of Muslims are not represented by the radical factions. The majority of Muslims are making the distinction between mainstream Muslim beliefs and what a few radicals belief.

There are also many stories of American Muslims supporting the war on terror and going beyond the resounding and very vocal denouncing of the attacks to actions such as giving blood, giving money, praising the fire fighters and rescue workers, etc. (Reports estimate that 500 Muslims died in the attacks).

Approximately 15,000 Muslims are active in the US military.

It seems to me that American Muslims are doing what the rest of Americans are doing. Denoucing the attacks, supporting the recovery effort, participating in the military, and working towards an understanding of how a radical faction could hijack their religion. Most reactions I have seen from American Muslims see the attacks and threats from the radical Muslims oversees as a threat on them as Americans (and a threat on them as traitors to the radical believers?).

I haven't seen many Christians defend the actions of the radical Muslims. What I have seen is peaceful Christians trying to put a governor on their own radical factions and trying to make this same distinction within Christianity.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/89/story_8987.html
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/musresp.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/islamterrorism.html

 

[Texas Lynn]

I think right-wingers up in arms over comments by Sen. Patty Murray misinterpreted them. She did not support Osama Bin Laden. she merely said we should examine why he is supported by Muslims. And we should.

Perhaps Islam is where Christendom was 1000 years ago emotionally. In the Middle Ages the feudal system was supported in Europe because it provided stability. A peasant revolt in the 1500s was denounced by no less than Martin Luther himself. Likewise the oil sheikhs and warlords like Musharef in Pakistan offer stability today. And as long as TPTB in the Islamic World redirect popular anger at Israel, America, and Britney Spears, they'll remain in power.

 

[cenimo]

Evangelion

then please reread the OP to "any of this sound familiar"..... and the responses...

notto

you know, that's all fine and good until youfind yourself boarding an airplane with some very suspicious looking types, odd thing about humans, when it hits that close to home, a lot of opinions change all of a sudden...

There was a judge in NYC known as "Turn 'em loose Bruce"..well, one day the judge's wife was a victim of a purse snatching....all of a sudden, all of NYPD was supposed to drop everything and go after the purse snatcher...

 

[notto]

Originally posted by cenimo

notto

you know, that's all fine and good until youfind yourself boarding an airplane with some very suspicious looking types, odd thing about humans, when it hits that close to home, a lot of opinions change all of a sudden...

I don't understand how this relates to your seeming repeated condemnation of all Mulims regardless of their views , actions, citizenship, or nation or origin.

I blame the terrorists for their actions. I do not blame the peaceful Muslims who have supported American, condemned the attacks, and continue to live as peaceful and productive citizens of the United States.

I guess to you all Muslims look like "suspicious looking types" instead of the ones that are terrorists. In my opinion, that is sad and if that is true, in a way, the terrorists have achieved one of their goals. They have you afraid of every Muslim and convinced that every Muslim is out to get you.

 

[Starscream]

Originally posted by cenimo
you know, that's all fine and good until youfind yourself boarding an airplane with some very suspicious looking types, odd thing about humans, when it hits that close to home, a lot of opinions change all of a sudden...

I suppose by "suspicious" you mean arabic?  Or someone who wears a turban?  Or perhaps anyone with a beard?  Are blacks suspicious?

Actually, I've boarded many planes since 9/11 and when I see a man that I think may be of middle-eastern decent I think to myself, "Poor chap, I bet there are a lot of eyes on him right now."

I don't let the actions of a few terrorists control my thoughts when it comes to someone who might be a Muslim.  I feel compassion for the Muslim community that now needs to fight this horrible generalization, I refuse to be overwhelmed by hatred and fear.

 

[Blindfaith]

Sen. Patty Murray represents the state in which I live.  I don't think there was any misinterpretation when she said he has built and support daycares How can that be when women aren't allowed to work?  Why would they need daycares?  Personally, I think she's an idiot.

{edit to add}

btw ~ I'm not a card-carrying Republican...thought I'd better include that

 

[Hector Medina]

Actually,

Is anyone aware that O.Bin Laden could be hiding here?
Mabye not quite the U.S. but in the somewhere in the Americas.........

I hear that opinion froma a avarage individual(not a politican,famous,authority or anything)and mabye its a theory outhere.

If I understand right, Canada is a lenient nation as crime is low and would be easy to hide in.


In Christ,

Sinc,

Hector

 

[cenimo]

People here are sure jumping to a lot of conclusions...
The original thread that led to this one was by someone who basically was trying to do an expose on issues we are "asleep" about or not doing anyhting about... and inclusded everything from hate crime laws being pased to a demand that new college students read a book on Islam...anyone who has read the papers or watched newscasts all along should be aware there things are indeed happening...

But instead of digesting that information, people attack the guy, his credentials, etc... amd come to the defesne of Islam...

What people are saying here about peaceful Muslims may be true, but they would have a lot more credibility if they attempted to poice their own problem children than trying to convince the non-Muslim world what a peace loving people they are and yet we see suicide bomber after suicide bomber.

If I was in a Mosque in the U.S., I would have the Imam do everthing he could to make sure there were no shenniaigans going on - i.e., fund raising that goes to terrorists, etc...

Texas Lynn

I think right-wingers up in arms over comments by Sen. Patty Murray misinterpreted them. She did not support Osama Bin Laden. she merely said we should examine why he is supported by Muslims. And we should.

Ah, because Bin Laden and his supporters belong to the faction of Islam that is bent on killing all non- Muslims. There's your examination of the issue in question.

____________________________________________________--


Somewhere in the Middle East, Al Qaeda training center:

I'm telling you Mustafa. You see these forums. You see the American Hollywood people? The more terrorist operations we run, the more Americans we kill, the more other Americans come to our defense. If our people acted like that we would behead them.

 

[Michael0701]

As a christian, a veteran and someone who lost a friend on 911, I struggle with my absolute hatred towards islamic extremism and the terrorists they spawn.  I know that I need to soften my heart and love them as children of God, but it is sooooo difficult for me. 

 

Originally posted by notto
[B

-snip-

The majority of Muslims are not represented by the radical factions. The majority of Muslims are making the distinction between mainstream Muslim beliefs and what a few radicals belief.

There are also many stories of American Muslims supporting the war on terror and going beyond the resounding and very vocal denouncing of the attacks to actions such as giving blood, giving money, praising the fire fighters and rescue workers, etc. (Reports estimate that 500 Muslims died in the attacks).

-snip-

[/B]

I'm sorry, but I don't see it.  Is there some sort of conspiracy at work to keep it away from me, to fester my feelings about them?  I read the papers every day.  Watch local as well as network news broadcasts and just don't see it.  They are not rising up in a loud voice and denouncing the clerics who preach hatred disguised as a religion.  Quite the contrary, they are very successfully turning things around and demonizing america and americans.  That's what I see on the news, those are the protests I hear of, those are the images of hate ingrained in my mind.  Of course I am painting them with a broad stroke, and I realize that not all of them feel that way, but it sure feels like the vast majority agree with them.

 

As for supporting them, I say lets do it.  Give them all the humanitarian support we can, even as they laugh at us.  Keep your friends close and your enemies closer 

 

[notto]

Originally posted by Michael0701
A

I'm sorry, but I don't see it.  Is there some sort of conspiracy at work to keep it away from me, to fester my feelings about them?  I read the papers every day.  Watch local as well as network news broadcasts and just don't see it.  They are not rising up in a loud voice and denouncing the clerics who preach hatred disguised as a religion.  Quite the contrary, they are very successfully turning things around and demonizing america and americans.  That's what I see on the news, those are the protests I hear of, those are the images of hate ingrained in my mind.  Of course I am painting them with a broad stroke, and I realize that not all of them feel that way, but it sure feels like the vast majority agree with them.

Sadly, mainstream Muslims repeated condemnation of the terrorists and their acts to support and recover from the terrorists hasn't been seen as "newsworthy" but it certainly has been done.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/musresp.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/america05.htm
http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa091102a.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/11/05/1036308310930.html
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

 

[notto]

Originally posted by cenimo


Somewhere in the Middle East, Al Qaeda training center:

I'm telling you Mustafa. You see these forums. You see the American Hollywood people? The more terrorist operations we run, the more Americans we kill, the more other Americans come to our defense. If our people acted like that we would behead them.

LOL!

Well, if they are reading . . . I hope they recieve what is do for their murderous crimes.

But again, the majority of Muslims are NOT in Al Qaeda training camps, nor is anyone here defeinding the terrorists. If you want everyone to see all Muslims as evil, dangerous, and "Targeting" America, you will have to do better than emotional appeals, conspiracy theories, made up dialog, and simple retoric.

 

[Michael0701]

notto,

that's what I find so frustrating. You say it isn't newsworthy as if the media is chosing not to show it. My point is if I don't see it, then they don't see it. And if they don't see it, then they need to do something to make sure we all see it. They need to work on their image, and correct it if it's being portrayed unjustly. There must be influential muslim leaders around the world, not just here in the US who are willing to step up and be heard. I think al jazeera would be a good place to start.

 

[cenimo]

notto

you are assuming I said all Muslims are evil. I never said that. But like Michael 0701 is trying to get across, the ones that are bad certainly are noticable and destroy the credibility of the decent ones.

The terrorists don't need any majority to be in training camps, they are terrorists, by that very nature, as we saw on 9-11, they don't need many at all. Of the six links you posted, at least three were Islamic. If I w to go to WND, Fox, Dave Hunt, and some other sites to prove my side I'd get nothing but criticism of the sources.

There is a faction of Islam that wants to kill all Christians and Jews- "people of the book" it calls them...Jesus said you are either for Him or against Him. There is no room for indecision in this, no gray area.

 

[notto]

Houston Muslims offer to aid FBI as translators
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/terror/local/1055351

U.S. Muslims expressing desire to serve FBI, secret service
http://www.etaiwannews.com/Perspective/2002/06/04/1023163543.htm

Law agencies trying to recruit Muslims
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/06/02/muslim.recruitment/

FBI Director Mueller Thanks American Muslim Community
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/s062802.htm

Muslims in law enforcement form new group
http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-04-10/367.asp

Muslim Vets Fight Terrorism Ties
http://www.sltrib.com/2002/Nov/11092002/Saturday/14873.htm

Fanatics and terrorists misguided
http://www.islamfortoday.com/adi03.htm

 

[Outspoken]

"I suppose by "suspicious" you mean arabic? Or someone who wears a turban? Or perhaps anyone with a beard? Are blacks suspicious?
"

Actually suspicious means just that, it doesn't imply racism. Don't jump to conclusions star. By the way, I agree with you on the poor chap comment.

 

[notto]

Originally posted by cenimo
notto

you are assuming I said all Muslims are evil. I never said that. But like Michael 0701 is trying to get across, the ones that are bad certainly are noticable and destroy the credibility of the decent ones.

I'm glad to see you making that distinction. The author of the article you used in the OP for the thread that inspired this one did not make that distinction and talked of "islam" as a whole.

 

[Outspoken]

I think its kinda funny that the same people here on this thread yelling about Islamic descrimination are the first ones in line to descriminate against christians or conservative people.

 

[Evangelion]

I don't see anyone "descriminating against Christians or conservative people."