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A question about the Torah and Talmud

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Phoebe, Aug 3, 2003.

  1. Phoebe

    Phoebe TwoBrickShyOfAFullLoad

    I was curious about a portion of Scripture in the Christian Bible. It is 1 Corinthians 14:34. Paul refers to a law in this particular verse.It reads 'women are to keep silent, just as the law says.' I was wondering what and where this law is. I haven't found it in the five books of Moses, and was wondering if it were a Talmudic law.
    Thank you.
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  2. Cephas

    Cephas New Member

    1Co 14:34 -
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    Ge 3:16 -
    Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    Well, the law says husbands shall rule over their wives. That is a form of being under obedience. But as far as them being permitted to speak, I see no specific law of it either. At least not in all of the old testament.

    It would be rather ironic to hear some in christianity explain this, if in fact Paul was speaking of a law of the Talmud still being in effect, yet clinging to the belief that the law of God is of no effect anymore as so "clearly illustrated by Paul". :scratch:
  3. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    The Jerusalem Talmud was compiled in the 5th century AD and the Babylonian one in the 6th century. Both way after the time of Sha'ul ( Paul). When Paul speaks of the law, he speaks of the Torah.

    The Torah was given not only to men, but to women and children also.
    "Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law." Deuteronomy 31:12
    The gospels record so much about women! Women are mentioned in the genealogy of Matthew plus it is the actual genealogy of Mary given in Luke! Women are portrayed as humble and eager to learn of Yeshua, like Joanna and Mary, dear Mary who 'chose the good part' and learned at Yeshua's feet instead of fretting over the housework. (Luke 10:40-42) It was to a Samaritan woman Yeshua revealed He was Messiah (Yochanan/John 4) and with great compassion Yeshua healed the woman with the serious issue of blood -- even encouraging her great faith; (Luke 8:43-48) Yeshua also healed the daughter of the Canaanite woman whom His disciples had sought to send away. (Mathew 15:20-28). Women were indeed touched by Yeshua's message and believed; no wonder it was women who came to his tomb with spices and discovered the greatest miracle of all: the tomb was empty!

    Now having said that, how can we understand passages ( like the one above) used to diminish a woman's role within the body of Yeshua?

    As with all of Sha'ul's letters, we have the answer but not the original question he is answering. Our job then becomes one of figuring out what the question may have been. The only thing we can be absolutely sure of is that at least one Corinthian in the assembly wrote Sha'ul about some problem of disturbance in the assembly from a portion of the women. There are three possibilities of what had happened we could guess from Sha'ul's reply.

    Scenario 1) Sha'ul is acknowledging these women have caused a disturbance by interupting the assembly with questions, and Sha'ul is ruling that these women should stop disturbing the assembly and keep quiet until they get home.

    Scenario 2) Sha'ul is debunking the men's complaint by first quoting the solution they proposed in their letter to him (their solution being that "women keep quiet") and then Sha'ul challenges their solution with "what? did the Word of G-d come to you only"(vs36); meaning, 'do you men actually believe that G-d only gives His Word for men to share and not women?' In which case the answer is 'no' and women may continue the behaviour the men complained about.

    Scenario 3) The whole issue is strictly a tongues issue, and that perhaps some women were speaking out of turn and disturbing the entire meeting. With this view, Sha'ul tells them 'not to forbid speaking in tongues' (vs39) but only try harder to maintain order.(vs40)
    Keep in mind that this Corinthian passage is dealing with a specific problem in the Corinthian church. It was never intended to be taken out of context and thrown at any woman who dares open her mouth!

    I think he is speaking of this:

    "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 1 Corinthians 11:3
  4. RaptureTicketHolder

    RaptureTicketHolder Selectively Agreeable

    Interesting, interesting. Im reading, but not sure what to make of it.

    Of course, Im biased, and well, Im outspoken and I believe the Lord made me this way. Why? To give me the terrible challenge of keeping quiet or to test me to listen? In listening, am I quiet or do I speak in action?

    Ahh haaa a way to be LOUD but not make a noise! I just love the Lord. Even in my misunderstood frustration of what Paul might have said, the Lord is still working ON ME, IN ME, and THRU ME!

    Now who can silence that?
  5. Phoebe

    Phoebe TwoBrickShyOfAFullLoad

    Thanks to all.
    Son Worshipper, I lean towards scenario #2. It would be helpful to have the letter that was written to Paul in the first place.
    I can handle being subject to my own husband, but to all men?

    Paul does preface this in chapter 12 with, "Now concerning the spiritual gifts..."
  6. Flipper

    Flipper Flippant Dolphin

    I've always been taught that it was Scenerio #3 because the letter was to a particular church to begin with.

    Kim, praying you get your answers!!
  7. Phoebe

    Phoebe TwoBrickShyOfAFullLoad

    I guess I lean toward #2 and #3. I need to slow down when I read.

    I also have a question about 1 Timothy 2:12. Is there a Jewish law that restricts women from teaching? If so, does anyone know why they aren't to teach.
    I was of the understanding that women were forgiven the sin of Eve, just as men were forgiven the sin of Adam.
  8. Ruhama

    Ruhama 25 'הושע ב

    I believe wholeheartedly in #2.
  9. SonWorshipper

    SonWorshipper Old Timer

    I think that there is teaching and there is teaching. :)

    What I believe is that a woman may teach and this is good, the L-rd did not provide woman with a brain if He didn't want her to use it. But also one must remember that we are to be a helper to the man.

    Now a woman may teach a husband that isn't as learned, BUT , that does not mean that he mindlessly takes whatever she says as complete truth for he is responsible to the L-rd himself for what he does, so must always "prove out" what a woman teaches , through the word and also in confirmation with the L-rd in prayer.

    A woman may help her husband in many ways, but the final descision is on him and the responsibility also to the L-rd is on him. This is what happened in the Garden. The Serpent went to Eve first, then tricked her, she in turn went to her husband, and instead of going to the L-rd for confirmation of what she told him, he just bit right in, and we all know what happened after that. :rolleyes:

    I think this also has to do with Specific Jewish teachings. There are many "schools of" different learned men who had protegees study under them. These should be men only that have these followers, not woman. Yeshua is the greatest example. He had 12 Students, apostles, disciples, and they were all men, but we know that many woman accompanied them on their many travels and learned also , but they were not the ones that were told to go out into the world and make diciples of all nations.

    Many times the teaching of the children from infanthood up to say 13 fell to the woman, she learned from her husband and in turn taught her children, under the supervision of the father.

    Now HaSatan has seen to really try and break this down big time. I am sure everyone of us has known a family were there is divorce for whatever reason and the Mother gets the kids and is teaching them how bad their father is. This is true in some cases, but not all and it only serves to break down the family unit. Something that the L-rd made us to have, not be apart.
  10. Phoebe

    Phoebe TwoBrickShyOfAFullLoad

    As far as male teachers are concerned, was this a law, or was it a tradition? Did God state at some point that women were not to teach?
    I've read about a Jewish/ Rabbinical law that states a man should not converse with a woman in public, not even his own wife.