A Question about the Problem of Evil

[SandRose]

I'm sure the "Problem of Evil" has been brought up on CF often enough that you all know what I'm referring to -- the idea that the existence of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the existence of a God that is both all-loving and all-powerful. It's a dilemma that has been raised and answered in many ways throughout the ages, and while I'm aware of the most common responses to and criticisms of it, the different reactions I've seen from different people have given me the impression that there isn't a single definitive, well-agreed-to solution.

So my question to you today is this: if you were confronted with the Problem of Evil, how would you answer the objection? In other words, what do you think is the best response? (This can be taken to mean what you personally think is the best response, or the response you think is best supported by the Bible.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

 

[ebia]

Most of the usual responses contain something of the truth, but they are all far from adequate, and frequently come across as trite.

The bible devotes the whole of one of it's longest books (Job) to exploring this very problem, and still leaves it as an open question. That seems to me to be the proper response.

 

[Hammster]

Can I ask a question? Do you believe that there is evil? And what do you base that on?

 

[heron]

and while I'm aware of the most common responses to and criticisms of it, the different reactions I've seen from different people have given me the impression that there isn't a single definitive, well-agreed-to solution.

I tried to do a research paper on this once. Imagine how far I got!!!

Get into a mode of sensing nature around you -- it lives, it grows, it tangles together, and it dies. Nutrients from old life forms help sustain the new. Life rolls on, but all forms are fallible and temporary.

No one being lives long enough to dominate (the redwoods are kinda stuck in place).

In nature, death is an accepted and necesary part of life. It is wholesome even when it brings disappointment and sorrow. Loss can even be beneficial, allowing space for new life to grow. Death is not good, but it works with the plan.

Similarly, irritants in the environment work in the plan. Annoying and even dangerous insects pollinate plants. Thorny weeds provide food and shelter for birds, messy algae provides food, carnivorous birds clean up rotting flesh. There is harmony and an orchestrated hum in the ups and downs of nature.

Evil is somewhat different, since malintent is designed in the mind, planning to harm another. We can work around it, design strategies to prevent it, take solid action to resist it, and protect each other from it.

Can I ask a question? Do you believe that there is evil? And what do you base that on?

I see evil as a conscious effort to harm another. Look at the current drycleaning lawsuit -- the customer tossed aside all sense of justice and kindness in an attempt to destroy someone's life.

Your question could be quite complex -- do you mean inherently evil beings, or just Evilness?

 

[heron]

Risk brings awareness of fallibility.

Fallibility can bring humility.

Humility is very helpful when co-existing harmoniously.

 

[JWA]

I'm sure the "Problem of Evil" has been brought up on CF often enough that you all know what I'm referring to -- the idea that the existence of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the existence of a God that is both all-loving and all-powerful. It's a dilemma that has been raised and answered in many ways throughout the ages, and while I'm aware of the most common responses to and criticisms of it, the different reactions I've seen from different people have given me the impression that there isn't a single definitive, well-agreed-to solution.

So my question to you today is this: if you were confronted with the Problem of Evil, how would you answer the objection? In other words, what do you think is the best response? (This can be taken to mean what you personally think is the best response, or the response you think is best supported by the Bible.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

Here are a few thoughts on this:
I think the bible is pretty clear that as we approach the return of Christ, the evil in the world will be intensified. Partly because the adversary knows that his time is short and he walks to and fro seeking whom he may devour.

Another point that is made in Gods' word is that people are gonna start calling evil good, and good evil. I believe that this is happening too in this day. Part of this is because alot of people, including many christians are comparing themselves amongst themselves. The bible and Gods' law should be the yardstick that christians measure themselves by instead of comparing their walk to others .
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith........

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.LOR][/CO

 

[SandRose]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Can I ask a question? Do you believe that there is evil? And what do you base that on?

I think Heron answered this pretty well. We can all observe that there is suffering in the world -- not just people being horrible to one another, but also natural disasters, infectious diseases, etc. I'm not sure if "evil" is the best term to describe it, but in the context of the question I suppose that's how it could be loosely defined.

In any case, I think the more interesting question is this: do you believe that there is evil? Or in other words, is it your understanding that the existence of evil is a premise that Christianity calls into question?

In an effort to protect ourselves from evil we have created laws that do the opposite. We have painted ourselves into a corner with one avenue of escape and that is direct confrontation.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Also, if I understand your post, are you basically saying that evil exists because of Original Sin? (Sorry if that's an oversimplification.)

 

[Hammster]

In any case, I think the more interesting question is this: do you believe that there is evil? Or in other words, is it your understanding that the existence of evil is a premise that Christianity calls into question?

I do believe that there is evil. And evil is a result of sin, which is simply disobeying God and what He commands. I don't think you can have evil without God (this is where I could get myself into trouble, so Christians, please ease up).

What I mean is that for there to even be evil, we need to have something to compare it to. If I said that sugar was sweet, and you had never tasted anything sour, then whether I called it sweet or sour wouldn't matter. Or, i am six feet, five inches tall. That is pretty tall. But if everyone was the same height, I would no longer be tall.

With evil, unless we have something good to compare it to, we don't really have evil. We have to have a standard of good that transcends ourselves. We can't just say being nice is good, because not everybody will agree that being nice is good. Or we cannot just call rape, child molestation, stealing, or murder 'bad', because what if someone disagrees. Then we have relativism; what is right for you is good, and what is right for me is good. Everybody does there own thing because they think it is 'right'.

So to really have good and evil, we need a line of demarcation that is immovable. And to Christians, that line is God. He is whom determines what is good and what is evil.

When man first sinned in the garden, that created a rift in God's perfect creation that is still felt today. The things that you mentioned (natural disasters, disease, etc.) are a result of sin, a result of the world gone awry. And in the end, God will restore creation back to perfection and will deal with evil (sin) once and for all.

 

[JWA]

In any case, I think the more interesting question is this: do you believe that there is evil? Or in other words, is it your understanding that the existence of evil is a premise that Christianity calls into question?

Absolutely beyond any shadow of doubt there is evil in the world. I'll define evil ( for clarity of my understanding ) as~ anything that is opposed to the order and plan set forth by God.

Even Natural disasters are eluded to in Romans 8 where it says the creation ( the world and everything in it ) is groaning and travailing in pain.... it goes on to say that the creature ( creation will be set free from it's bondage to decay....

To expand on where i'm coming from a bit.... in my earlier post i posted on evil and calling evil good etc.... I feel that at this time the dark forces at work in the world are playing on the complacency of our culture and its de-sensitivity to evil, in hopes of bringing folks to question if there really is any evil. To make whoever will buy into the thought of " those kookie christians see a demon behind every bush; isn't that just so ridiculous"~ in short the wearing down of the saints~ to discredit anyone who might suggest the possibility of evil and its existence.

At the other end of the spectrum is the notion that evil and good are equal forces at work ~ the yin and yang if you will~ ..... but in truth the powers of darkness are very weak in comparison to the truth and the light...

God bless!

 

[heron]

I was just on another thread where I needed to look up the Greek word for evil, and it had different connotations than we use today:

4190ponhro/v

full of labours, annoyances, hardships

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
   [*]
   1. pressed and harassed by labours
   2. bringing toils, annoyances, perils; of a time full of peril to Christian faith and steadfastness; causing pain and trouble
   [*] bad, of a bad nature or condition
   1. in a physical sense: diseased or blind
   2. in an ethical sense: evil wicked, bad
   [/FONT]

Then in Hebrew, 7451 Ra`

1. bad, evil
   1. bad, disagreeable, malignant
   2. bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
   3. evil, displeasing
   4. bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
   5. bad (of value)
   6. worse than, worst (comparison)
   7. sad, unhappy
   8. evil (hurtful)
   9. bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
   10. bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
       1. in general, of persons, of thoughts
       2. deeds, actions (Noun Masculine)
2. evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
   1. evil, distress, adversity
   2. evil, injury, wrong
   3. evil (ethical) (Noun Feminine)
3. evil, misery, distress, injury
   1. evil, misery, distress
   2. evil, injury, wrong
   3. evil (ethical)

It doesn't answer your question, but it's an interesting factoid.

 

[Key]

I'm sure the "Problem of Evil" has been brought up on CF often enough that you all know what I'm referring to -- the idea that the existence of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the existence of a God that is both all-loving and all-powerful. It's a dilemma that has been raised and answered in many ways throughout the ages, and while I'm aware of the most common responses to and criticisms of it, the different reactions I've seen from different people have given me the impression that there isn't a single definitive, well-agreed-to solution.

So my question to you today is this: if you were confronted with the Problem of Evil, how would you answer the objection? In other words, what do you think is the best response? (This can be taken to mean what you personally think is the best response, or the response you think is best supported by the Bible.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

Well the simple answer is.. we made this bed, now we have to sleep in it.

Now, also note, God never promises us a painless life, or to have it easy, or anything even remotely along those lines. As such, I do not see a problem in the aspect of "Suffering" in our lives.

However, the real problem here stems from peoples ideas about God, I call a "Box-god Syndrome" this is where people try to put that which is God, (Creator of the Universe and All there is), into a neat little box. Well, in the end, when this is done, there are going to be problems with the "Box-god" and reality of Life.

As such, the problem is not suffering, or God, but the Box people try to put God into.

I hope I have answered this question for you.

God Bless

Key

 

[gracealone]

Hi SandRose,
Lot's of great responses here as to the problem of reconciling the evil that we see in our world with the loving hand of the God who created it all. For me I have to agree with the earlier post that said one cannot really define evil without understanding that there is a God. The creator of Good. Evil is a cancer on that which God made to be Good. You can't define evil unless you understand Good. Good must have an original source, i.e. if there is a moral law then there must be a moral law giver.
I believe the problem of Evil stems from the fact that God made man to have the ability to choose, which is what is referred to as free will. In doing so God allowed for mankind to choose to have an unspoiled relationship with Him. Bascially there are two things that happen as a result of this. One is where people push God out of their lives and try to evict Him from their culture and their world.. in doing so they say to Him not your will God but mine. Or they can choose to say to Him ,Not my will but Thy will my God. This is the only way to have a true relationship with Him... but it also allows for the first choice and therefore the possibility of evil. The possibility of doing the exact opposite of what God has for our own good intended for us to do. We have left our proper estate. Thus we have evil... the twisting and perverting of good. If this were not so then the only other possible world I see is a world filled with a bunch of pre-programmed robots without free will. Imagine if you loved someone so much that you wanted to marry them and then imagine that when you asked them to spend the rest of their life with you that they would say yes... but only because they were pre-programmed to respond back to you in that way. How could you call such a thing a relationship and what kind of satisfaction would such a union bring?
As to what a loving God is doing about this mess we've gotten in to..I can only say that He has done something , (The cross of Jesus Christ), He is doing something, (Continually reconciling people to Himself through that cross), and He will do something, (When He returns and sets everything right again.)
Thanks be to Him who still seeks us even when we have run so very far from home.

 

[SandRose]

Fascinating. Thanks to everyone who's responded so far.
*awaits others' thoughts / perspectives*

 

[SuperNova]

God did not create evil. The earth in the beginning did have the potential for evil, but it was not God's original design. God had to allow death to exist after sin entered the world because without death Jesus could not have died on the cross to atone for our sins.

But, God is not to blame for the evil in the world just because his original creation had no evil, but did have the potential for evil. To say He is responsible for evil is like saying General Motors is responsible for a car accident because they created the car. They didn't design the car for accidents, they designed it to be driven properly. The potential for an accident existed but they themselves are not responsible if one happens. God is not responsible for the evil because his creations have minds of their own. And the evil in the world is there because his creations used their minds to disobey him.
Also, God would not have allowed this to happen had he not known he was able to fix the problem. He knew in Genesis that he was looking forward to the Cross. The plan of salvation was already there. God knew he'd be able to fix it. Nothing is ever too big for God to fix even if God has to come down himself and pay the price. A non-loving God would not have bothered with the cross. But because He is a loving God he was willing to take our place and suffer for our evil.

 

[Catherineanne]

So my question to you today is this: if you were confronted with the Problem of Evil, how would you answer the objection? In other words, what do you think is the best response? (This can be taken to mean what you personally think is the best response, or the response you think is best supported by the Bible.)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

I am intruiged by you saying 'if'. Every single person on earth has to wrestle with the issue of good and evil pretty well every day of their lives.

My view is that we do not see the full picture, and therefore cannot understand the role of evil and suffering in the world, but that it has to have a role, and that role has to be for our ultimate good, even if along the way it causes us great pain.

This might not help much. However, as a comparison, there is a medical condition (I have forgotten what it is called) where the sufferer can feel no pain. We all hate pain, and try to avoid it, but actually it is there to protect us from harm, and without it we would not live very long. We would (as these poor souls do) break bones without realising it, and throw ourselves headlong into every situation without regard for the injury it would cause to us.

Pain, therefore, is a protection to us, and we can learn, like St Francis to embrace it as a sister. The same can be said for suffering, which can be the source of tremendous spiritual growth. The problem is, of course, it can also be the source of lots of other things.

Ultimately it is how we respond to these issues, and whether we do so with our eyes on the cross, or simply on our own needs, which determines whether we are destroyed by our suffering, or rise above it. And the same goes when we encounter evil in the world around us.

This does not explain in any way why it is here, because only God can answer that, but it does explain how Christians can (usually, but not always) retain their faith in the face of appalling life events. Our Lord knew pain and suffering, and when we encounter the same, we can choose to recognise this as our sharing in his passion and his death. We find connection with the deity through our own pain, and we refuse to let evil have the victory. Just as Christ did.

And if you need proof of a loving God, you only need to look at the process of death. When the body is dying, it has been shown by experiment to be flooded with endorphins, which give a sense of euphoria, peace and wellbeing. This makes no sense in Darwinian terms, because there is no evolutionary benefit to be gained by any animal having a peaceful, relatively painfree end. It is only a loving God who would ensure that both animals and people have the gift of a peaceful death. Pain is not the last word in our lives; Love is.

 

[SandRose]

I am intruiged by you saying 'if'. Every single person on earth has to wrestle with the issue of good and evil pretty well every day of their lives.

Ha ha, nice catch I suppose it's just a product of my awkward wording -- I meant it in a "if you were to be asked about the problem of evil" sort of way.

Thanks for your response, though.

 

[Catherineanne]

Ha ha, nice catch I suppose it's just a product of my awkward wording -- I meant it in a "if you were to be asked about the problem of evil" sort of way.

Thanks for your response, though.

You are most welcome.

 

[The Virginian]

I'm sure the "Problem of Evil" has been brought up on CF often enough that you all know what I'm referring to -- the idea that the existence of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the existence of a God that is both all-loving and all-powerful.... .

So my question to you today is this: if you were confronted with the Problem of Evil, how would you answer the objection?....

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

There actually is a "Biblical" answer to your query; and as far as the Orthodox theology is concerned, it is settled although the discussion is on-going.
Someone mentioned the book of Job, but not in the manner which I'll mention now. The main(?) lesson of the book is this: What happens when God takes away His hedge of protection from around His people. Second to this is the rather obvious one of; Satan is the cause of evil in this world, both to bad people, and to good people! How and Why?
After God had created Adam and Eve, the Genesis record has them being placed in the Garden of Eden as caretakers. Actually they were to have dominion over the entirety of creation. If you will; the Garden was the O.T version of the Vineyard, and Adam and Eve, the ones to whom it was leased. When the King returned for the produce of the Vineyard, He found that the authority of the rightful caretakers
(stewards), had been usurped by the authority of sin and evil, i.e., the Serpent, the devil. If one reads carefully, it is here that we find the first prophecy about the Virgin Birth of a Redeemer, and His triumph over the Serpent, "...you shall bruise His heel, but He shall bruise your head..."
Sin and evil exists in this world, and is the cause of much suffering. To which; as attested to by the Apostle Paul in his Epistle to the Romans, Christians are not immune. "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compare with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God...For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."
The ability of mankind to choose something apart from the availability of the salvation of God offered in His Son Jesus Christ, is really an incredible thing. But, and this is the kicker; even though we may choose to serve God through His Son Jesus Christ, while still in this world we will suffer the consequences of being here though in reality, that is spiritually, victorious over it.

the sinful and unworthy servant