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easy does it Kiddo! Please keep in mind you are a guest in this forum. You are in close proximity of a violation of the forum rules as you are not Lutheran. Questions may be posted, but debate, on your part anyway, is strictly verboten.
Since you attend a Seventh Day Adventist Church, you will naturally view the scriptures differently than we do (yes I checked your profile). That makes neither you nor us wrong in our own venues. However, we must adhere to our doctrines and theologies or risk hypocracy. You are not allowed, in another faith's sub-forum to challenge that faith's doctrines as you just came very close to doing. If you would like to promote your faith's beliefs in this area, may I suggest opening a thread in the Anabaptist forum? Some of us visit there on a regular basis. One just doesn't often hear from us.
Your input is welcome and has been interesting. Just please remember, comments and questions are welcome. Debate is not allowed for non-Lutherans (gosh, don't Lutherans argue enough amoungst themselves?).
You quoting the text to support your point does not make the other scriptures which do not support your point irrelevant. What we should seek to do is harmonize scripture and not have a bible text battle.
As I told you before, the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah was said in Jude to be eternal fires.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Notice also that the Sodom and Gomorrah experience is set forth as an example. Those folks suffered the vengeance of Eternal Fire in Sodom and Gomorrah. It means that the lost will also suffer vengeance of Eternal Fire like Sodom and Gomorrah. We know however that the fired of Sodom and Gomorrah are no longer burning. So we need to ask ourselves, why is it described as eternal fire. Also those folks must have eternal life to have suffered and suffering eternal fire.
I'll adhere to your request, Rev. But let me say one last thing. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I've learned to love the LCMS position on this. God has used scripture to tell us what is important. We don't need any more than that.
So, I make no claim that my speculation is correct. It is, for me, an enjoyable way to explore the depths of God. Some of it may be correct. Most of it is likely wrong.
But there are many, like myself, who take a long time to accept that. So, to have someone shut off the conversation appears as a dodge. It frustrates the situation rather than aiding it. At the same time, I realize this speculation could also cause someone to stumble. If that happened, it would sadden me. So how do I split that hair? How do I talk with those who, like myself, like to speculate, and draw them to that understanding that we simply can't know absolutely about the areas where scripture is silent - while at the same time not harming those for whom these discussions are frightening?
I don't have an answer for that. But I will be quiet for now.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengance of eternal fire.
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in un-natural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbouring towns; like the angels, they commmitted fornication and followed unnatural lusts; and paid the penalty in eternal fire, an example for all to see.
Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanant warning of the fire of judgement.
As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I've learned to love the LCMS position on this. God has used scripture to tell us what is important. We don't need any more than that.
Well, according to my theory, my soul would weigh about 3 lbs. So, if the souls measured by the good doctor only weighed 0.75 oz ...
And would those who are saved weigh more than those who aren't?
It may be that those who are saved have the lightest soul... unburdened by sin .
You may need to revise your theory!
Phillips Paraphrase is even more different:
What the writer of Jude is calling attention to is not so much the locality of those old communities, but their populations. It's the people of Sodom and Gomorrah as well as those who lived in the neighboring towns, that the writer is referring to. Thus naturally, the region of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding valley are no longer burning. The people who inhabited that region however, are currently burning in Shoel and will remain there for all eternity.
Now, as to the 'sleep' thing: Was Jesus lying or otherwise decieving the crimminal beside him when he told him, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise,"? Thus, if our Lord, who was incedentally God himself in human flesh, told this man they would both be in Heaven that day, there is no such thing as "soul sleep".
Perhaps a 'body sleep' might be acceptable. Our physical body sleeping here on the Earth, returning to the elements from which it came (ashes to ashes, dust to dust...), then being reconstituted by the Lord in shining perfection. Those of us who are lucky enough to witness the Lord in the clouds will be transformed as they stand there.
I have no objection at all if you present a premise of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Just please present it as such, not a refutation of accepted Lutheran doctrine. Thus, both sides of the coin are displayed and neither is offended.
Ok. I haven't been here in 3 years. In fact, this was the first forum I came to when i first got here and I remember giving DaRev some trouble
I remember back then I was warned against breaking the rules but I didn't know anything about rules then. I do now. I found it important to contribute to this particular topic since the OP in my opinion deserves to hear from both sides.
The original greek has no commas. When the comma is placed after "Today," is has a different meaning to if it is placed before ",Today". "I say unto you Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise". Many have said and I agree that the comma is misplaced in the KJV.
If you look at it though, Jesus did not go to heaven on that day but as the bible said he went to the heart of the earth. Peter said he went to hades which is also translated grave.
Is my presence here being a bother to you guys? If so I would just leave.
I'd be interested to hear your rationale for saying that the comma was misplaced. For you to bring up the Greek text, you must have studied Greek somewhat? Then you should know that one of the reasons the comma is placed where it is in the Engalih text is because of where the word "semeron" appears in the sentence.
Be careful that you don't deny the divine nature, and thus the omnipresence, of Christ.
I figure that, God being...well GOD, He isn't constrained by time and space and the notion of "sleep". Neither does the dead guy...anymore. We who are in the timestream "see" time passing but once we are removed from that, the concept of "sleep" and "time" no longer matters and we are caught up in JOY everlasting. (provided, of course, that we die as believers.)Dead people are removed from time constraints as well. Therefore, after death, we don't exist in a place where "time" has any meaning anymore, so we're not exactly "transported" to some mysterious time in the future we call Judgment Day; it's just that we suddenly exist in a realm where all points in time exist - so we go there "immediately", so to speak.
The saints in heaven cry "how long, O Lord, how long" because they can SEE our suffering and they KNOW that it's taking A Really Long Time - not because they're confined to the timestream as we are, but because they can SEE it happening and they wish it was over too.
Ahh such information to chew over. I asked my bestest friend the same question and she popped in here to read and this is what she sent me:
I figure that, God being...well GOD, He isn't constrained by time and space and the notion of "sleep". Neither does the dead guy...anymore. We who are in the timestream "see" time passing but once we are removed from that, the concept of "sleep" and "time" no longer matters and we are caught up in JOY everlasting. (provided, of course, that we die as believers.)
ProphecyKid, I appreciate the info but...
ETA: I forgot to say that she said "this is my BEST GUESS"
I always took this as a figurative statement in the same vein as Gen 4:10. I've also always taken the "sleep" thing as a euphimism for death.
OK. But don't laugh too much. It is quite different from the way most people think, and so those I've spoken to about it find it quite strange. To begin with, as I said above I take a lot of the scripture on this topic as figurative language. If one sits down to try and produce some definitive work on "soul" and "spirit" as those terms are used in scripture, one is likely to go mad. But as it stands, it seems my idea answers questions about coma, mental capacity (what if someone is to handicapped to "understand" scripture and questions like that) and so forth.
It begins here: dead is dead. There is no ghostly essence that separates from the body at death. (Caner cringes and waits for the reply)
The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the body and soul are one. (Charles Russell came fron the SDAs. ) Does the SDA church teach this also?
This discussion brings to mind the NDEs that are reported. I watched a show on tv about this two days ago.
A pastor once described to me the following attributes to the Trinity:
God: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omnicient.
Christ: Omnipotent, Omnicient.
Holy Spirit: Omnipresent, Omnicient.
Due to Christ's physical body, he couldn't be Omnipresent whilst on Earth. Hence why he sent the Holy Spirit after he ascended. This is a quality that the Holy Spirit does possess. However, since God is a Trinity and all three persons are one person, then Christ does possess Omnipresence through the Holy Spirit.
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